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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any Quakers on here? (Mainly about pronouns.)

120 replies

SelfPortraitWithEels · 03/08/2021 11:44

This is pretty niche, but I'm a Quaker who's been pondering a lot recently about the way the use of preferred pronouns intersects with the truth testimony, and wondered if anyone else was working through similar questions? I'm curious about it, as my own conviction is that preferred pronouns (if they are at odds with biological sex) are either obfuscating (they) or a lie (he/she). The Quakers have a legacy of and a reputation for plain speech, and originally pissed a lot of people off by using thee and thou instead of you, because they felt it was more important to stick to the truth than make people feel comfortable or to be "kind". (In inverted commas, because they'd probably argue that true kindness couldn't ever be based on falsehood.) But it's clear that a lot of people in the Quaker community see it differently... It's a long shot, but is there anyone out there with thoughts on this?

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JoodyBlue · 03/08/2021 11:55

I have not dissimilar concerns. The idea of truth is interesting isn't it. There are lots of different methodologies for expressing truthful ideas. Maths is one. Language is one. Music might be one. There may be others non-verbal, non aural, non visual etc. Where the method is language it seems to me that truth expression in language is based on a general consensus of meaning behind words across the population using that language. That changes over time. In this particular situation the consensus has been denied by the "no debate" edict.

RoyalCorgi · 03/08/2021 12:43

I don't know the answer but find it a very interesting question. I have Quaker friends so know that there are still some Quakers who are so strict about truth telling that if you ask them, say, "Do you like my new dress?" they will say No rather than lie.

Is it a lie to refer to someone by their preferred pronouns? If someone wanted to be referred to as "Dr" even though they're not one, would it be a lie if one went along with their wishes?

A very similar issue arises in court with regards to perjury. The current guidance is that witnesses and all members of the court must use preferred pronouns to the extent of calling a rapist "she" if that is how the rapist identifies. It seems extraordinary.

Nojobforoldmums · 03/08/2021 12:51

I believe that if you consider pronouns to reflect gender identity and not be a statement of biological sex than there is no contradiction.

CharlieParley · 03/08/2021 13:16

@Nojobforoldmums

I believe that if you consider pronouns to reflect gender identity and not be a statement of biological sex than there is no contradiction.
But the truth is that they refer to sex. Do Quakers get to redefine what the truth is?

(Genuine question. If truth is all that matters, but truth is a changeable thing, then how can truth be all that matters?)

CharlieParley · 03/08/2021 13:41

Naomi Cunningham recently published two articles on "misgendering" in the workplace. In the second she analyses different "misgendering" scenarios in the work place in light of the Maya Forstater ruling.

Is "misgendering" always harassment?

More on "misgendering"

A Quaker being confronted with this issue is her first example. (I'm quoting it in full, but the whole article is worth consideration. As is the first.)

J is a male employee who announces a female gender identity at work, will wear feminine-coded clothing from now on and use a new name. L is a female co-worker.

Scenario 1
L is a Quaker. She says her commitment to the truth as she understands it is central to her belief, and although she is perfectly content to use J’s new name, she is not able in conscience to use grammatically inaccurate pronouns. She says she will do her best to accommodate J by rephrasing anything she says about him to avoid using pronouns at all where she reasonably can, but she warns that this will be easier in writing than in speech. J complains that by refusing to use his preferred pronouns, L is harassing him.

Comment
L is entitled not to suffer discrimination on grounds of her Quaker beliefs. J is entitled not to suffer conduct by colleagues that has the purpose or effect of violating his dignity or creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for him. When a tribunal considers whether conduct amounts to harassment of J, it must take into account both J’s perception and whether it is reasonable for the conduct in question to have the effect of violating his dignity (etc.). L’s entitlement not to suffer discrimination on grounds of her beliefs must be relevant to the analysis of whether it is reasonable for her conduct to have that effect.

My view is that J’s expectation – that his preference to be referred to using female pronouns should trump L’s right not to be forced to use language in a way she regards as untruthful – is unreasonable. He may, subjectively, feel harassed; but I think the extent of his proposed incursion into L’s rights means that the answer to the question whether it is reasonable for him to feel harassed is considered should be an unequivocal “no”. Note, though, that although this is my confident view of the correct interpretation of the EqA, it can’t be assumed that an employment tribunal would necessarily agree. On balance, I think on these facts L would probably prevail in the end, but it could well require an appeal.

Nojobforoldmums · 03/08/2021 13:48

I haven't had a deep conversation about this with my quaker friend who is trans, but I don't believe they consider themselves to be redefining the truth. They just don't consider the truth to be that they refer to sex.

That is their viewpoint, I am only relaying it so don't want to get in an argument!

lanadelgrey · 03/08/2021 14:29

Worth having a delve around as I know there have been discussions both of the be kind/be truthful from a couple of years ago. WPUK had booked events at meeting houses, one was cancelled in Brighton but one took place in Norwich, I think. So reasoning came up.

Icefisher · 03/08/2021 14:44

I think as with many things among Friends, you will get different answers from different Quakers. Many would see gender identities as real and true, some are gender critical. We should not seek to divide Friends on this issue but find a way to clarify how the community can coexist, learn from different ways, and continue to seek light together.

I remember one Elder saying (as a general point) that our commitment to the truth witness should be used thoughtfully, and not be used as an excuse to cause hurt. For me that would mean that I could in good conscience use pronouns as the person I am speaking to wishes - in any informal situation - but not something like a court of law where consistency in my own speech and speaking my own truth matters. However if anyone asked me to declare my own pronouns, I would refuse as I refuse to let myself be stereotyped. In the same way I would not say to someone believing in astrology that their belief was worthless, unless I had to. But I would not tell them my “star sign” as that would make me complicit in a belief system which I do not think brings clearness or light.

SmokedDuck · 03/08/2021 15:06

@Nojobforoldmums

I haven't had a deep conversation about this with my quaker friend who is trans, but I don't believe they consider themselves to be redefining the truth. They just don't consider the truth to be that they refer to sex.

That is their viewpoint, I am only relaying it so don't want to get in an argument!

I think this is a really common perspective, especially among younger people. They either believe that pronouns have always really referred more to gender than sex, or that they ought to be used that way and that we can make a decision as a society to do so, since we have the power to redefine language and social usages, and this should be done to attain social justice goals.
transdimensional · 03/08/2021 15:36

@RoyalCorgi

I don't know the answer but find it a very interesting question. I have Quaker friends so know that there are still some Quakers who are so strict about truth telling that if you ask them, say, "Do you like my new dress?" they will say No rather than lie.

Is it a lie to refer to someone by their preferred pronouns? If someone wanted to be referred to as "Dr" even though they're not one, would it be a lie if one went along with their wishes?

A very similar issue arises in court with regards to perjury. The current guidance is that witnesses and all members of the court must use preferred pronouns to the extent of calling a rapist "she" if that is how the rapist identifies. It seems extraordinary.

I'm not a Quaker but if someone went around calling themselves Dr something, and neither worked nor had trained as a doctor nor held any kind of doctorate, nor anything else that would conventionally enable them to call themselves Dr, I would consider that dishonest of them and potentially equivalent to a lie.
JellySlice · 03/08/2021 15:42

Nojobforoldmums
I believe that if you consider pronouns to reflect gender identity and not be a statement of biological sex than there is no contradiction.
But the truth is that they refer to sex. Do Quakers get to redefine what the truth is?

They refer to neither. They refer to what the speaker perceives. A sees B and perceives them as male, therefore uses masculine pronouns to refer to B. B responds, claiming that B is a woman. If A now perceives A as female, A switches to using feminine pronouns to describe B, regardless of B's actual sex. But if A still believes B to be male, why should A change the pronouns A uses to describe B? Surely that would be dishonesty.

AnyOldPrion · 03/08/2021 15:46

@Nojobforoldmums

I haven't had a deep conversation about this with my quaker friend who is trans, but I don't believe they consider themselves to be redefining the truth. They just don't consider the truth to be that they refer to sex.

That is their viewpoint, I am only relaying it so don't want to get in an argument!

I’m not Quaker, though my parents are.

Not arguing with you, Nojobforoldmums, but I wanted to comment on what you relayed.

For me, I think this is the crux of the problem. An attempt is being made to redefine the truth. It appears to be heavily backed by groups, such as some specialists within the medical profession, that in the past, I would have trusted, but on this matter no longer do.

So those like your trans friend may well believe (or I suspect, be working very hard to believe) that they are telling the truth. They have some heavyweight people backing them, which means that in a legal sense, we might find ourselves on the wrong side of the law for saying something that, until a very short time ago, was considered to be a statement of truth so straightforward that nobody would have questioned it.

For myself, I feel much the same as Icefisher. I wouldn’t use the correct sex pronouns to cause hurt, though I might try to avoid them and definitely would if I thought the person in question was using them as a form of coercion.

I would not use them in court and would go to prison if that was the consequence, rather than commit perjury, having sworn to tell the truth.

Potteringshed · 03/08/2021 15:58

I'm a Quaker, though I guess only casually observant these days. My take has always been that language evolves and grows. Being a Quaker doesn't mean that we are stuck using only the words that were used 100 years ago to convey the experiences of that time - and many of those words would be seen as offensive now.

Pronouns are not a scientific term used to confirm the results of a DNA test. They are a form of address and I'm ok with that form of address reflecting the truth of someone's gender identity and the nature of the gendered relationship they wish to have with the world rather than anything specifically biological.

CharlieParley · 03/08/2021 16:43

Third person pronouns are not a form of address though. They are merely a referent, that is Person A talks to Person B about Person C. Neither Person A nor Person B are addressing Person C.

Their usage therefore does not reflect the belief of Person C but Person A.

So asking Person A to use Person C's preferred pronouns to refer to them, usually in their absence, is asking Person A to manifest the belief of Person C, regardless of what Person A believes.

CharlieParley · 03/08/2021 16:45

@Nojobforoldmums

I haven't had a deep conversation about this with my quaker friend who is trans, but I don't believe they consider themselves to be redefining the truth. They just don't consider the truth to be that they refer to sex.

That is their viewpoint, I am only relaying it so don't want to get in an argument!

Thanks for your response. I wasn't looking for an argument, just trying to understand how a Quaker might reason this out, because I am aware that there are different viewpoints among Quakers.
AnyOldPrion · 03/08/2021 17:11

My take has always been that language evolves and grows.

It is true that language evolves, but that implies a process whereby new words or meaning come into use and become accepted in an organic way.

Had doctors introduced transitioning, proven the science and then society had been gradually brought to accept that it was correct, that would have been language evolving.

In this case it’s not so much that language is evolving, rather it’s being pushed onto us and (where I live) enforced with laws that crminalise the vast majority of the population, very likely without most of them even being aware of it.

SelfPortraitWithEels · 03/08/2021 17:13

I believe that if you consider pronouns to reflect gender identity and not be a statement of biological sex than there is no contradiction.

Well, if you do actually believe this, there isn't a contradiction, necessarily, as long as you make it clear to your interlocutor that that's what you mean. My problem arises for three reasons - a) it requires a belief that gender identity exists; b) it means that you must refer to almost everyone you have not spoken to, in the past or present, as "they", since you cannot possibly know someone's gender identity unless they tell you; and c) redefining words in order to use them to avoid unpleasantness, regardless of what you or your audience have historically understood by them, is dishonest. If you genuinely subscribe to a creed, and also are sure that whoever you're talking to is absolutely clear what you mean, I suppose it's truthful - but only in the sense that it's not a lie to use a metaphor, because everyone present understands that it's not literally true. If there's ambiguity and you're deliberately exploiting it, then that's a falsehood. (If you apply the same rule to a personal situation, it's fairly clear that it's at best equivocation: "Yes, but, darling, what I meant when I said it was...".)

Thanks, Charley - I'd seen that and was struck by the contrast between the old-fashioned plain speech Quaker in the example and modern "be kind" Quakers.

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thinkingaboutLangCleg · 03/08/2021 17:13

I admire the Quakers and their ethos, and have attended meetings in the past. I can only aspire to most of their qualities, but respect for truth is one of the principles we share. I will not call a man a woman in order to please him. It isn't a minor matter. The gender-identity movement is harming women and girls in too many ways.

The Norwich Quakers in the link posted by User, above, clearly made a very honest and open-hearted effort to understand both sides. Very peaceful but also courageous, in that they were not intimidated into cancelling a feminist booking as so many other organisations have.

SelfPortraitWithEels · 03/08/2021 17:27

Oops, missed a page of responses there... Thank you too, Shed, and user - I have seen some of the Quaker responses to conflict around gender diversity (and BYM is currently wrestling with it). It's specifically the intersection of the truth testimony with pronouns which strikes me as problematic - in general I do agree that the Quaker approach of listening, acknowledging hurt on both sides, and speaking the truth in love is the best one. I like the insight of the elder about not speaking the truth to hurt anyone - I suppose that's the same as speaking the truth in love - but feel that dodging the truth to avoid conflict is not loving, although it may be easier.

Ooh I do sound pious... sorry! Blush

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Scutterbug · 03/08/2021 17:33

@Potteringshed

I'm a Quaker, though I guess only casually observant these days. My take has always been that language evolves and grows. Being a Quaker doesn't mean that we are stuck using only the words that were used 100 years ago to convey the experiences of that time - and many of those words would be seen as offensive now.

Pronouns are not a scientific term used to confirm the results of a DNA test. They are a form of address and I'm ok with that form of address reflecting the truth of someone's gender identity and the nature of the gendered relationship they wish to have with the world rather than anything specifically biological.

This! Am Quaker too and fully agree.
SelfPortraitWithEels · 03/08/2021 17:35

Yes, I think it's perfectly possible to be truthful and use preferred pronouns if you believe in gender identity. I'm not impugning the integrity of Friends who do. But what should you do if you don't?

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SelfPortraitWithEels · 03/08/2021 17:38

(To clarify, I'm talking about the ideal, perfectly truthful Quaker, like the early Friends who were despised for using "thee" - not me, I don't claim to be any more truthful than anyone else, I'll say "delicious cake" before anyone even asks me... Grin)

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PamDenick · 03/08/2021 17:46

This is really interesting. Thank you for posting this.

saraclara · 03/08/2021 17:54

@PamDenick

This is really interesting. Thank you for posting this.
Yes. I'm not a Quaker but a family member is, and I have huge respect for the Quaker movement. This is an area that I hadn't realised posed specific problems for Friends, so it's a really interesting thread.