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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Empowered by 'sex work'

137 replies

Springfern · 21/10/2019 18:42

Long time lurked on this board. Thought I'd introduce myself!

Looking for some advice. I'm firmly rad fem when it comes to so called sex work. I used to work as a support worker for prostituted women and it was such a grim and depressing job. I've spent a number of years reading about prostitution and the nordic model. This is something I feel passionately about and it makes a lot of sense to me alongside my other feminist views.

The problem is... I'm hearing more and more women arguing that sex work is 'empowering' these days. Friends, colleagues, people who I other wise respect...and its everywhere in the culture (their must be about 10 netflix shows right now which glamorise prostitution!) I find it hard to argue with or get through to them without it sounding as if I am anti women's choice (ironically). I also get very have andninvested and then am probably written off as a crazy woman! Have any of you had an success in these types of conversations? If so how? What have you said? Have you managed to change anyone's mind?

My best response at the moment is rolling my eyes and saying 'the men who pay for it feel empowered' ...I need something a bit more substantial though!

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Springfern · 21/10/2019 18:43

Oops....Very angry and invested *

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HorseWithNoFucksToGive · 21/10/2019 18:47

If prostitution is so fucking empowering how come you don't do it (or urge your daughter to do it)?

Is what I'd ask them.

It's always somebody else's daughter innit!

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HorseWithNoFucksToGive · 21/10/2019 18:49

And BTW men can be prostitutes too. So sons can be empowered.

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DuMondeB · 21/10/2019 18:51

It can feel empowering, when you are in it. Or at least, it can at first.

Ask them if the women of the managed zone in Leeds look empowered?

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ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 21/10/2019 18:52

Think of a man they personally have named as creepy, weird, disgusting, whatever, I'll call him Derek.

Then cheerily say, 'oh that's great, Derek has been looking for a five quid blow job, no condoms obviously for extra empowerment, I'll let him know you're the person to fufil his needs, he'll be soooooooo happy!'.

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ErrolTheDragon · 21/10/2019 18:56

I'm hearing more and more women arguing that sex work is 'empowering' these days. Friends, colleagues, people who I other wise respect

Are any of them actually 'sex workers' or do they just think it's 'empowering' for other women?Hmm

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Whatsnewpussyhat · 21/10/2019 18:59

Funny that boys and men aren't being told how empowering sex work is.

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HorseWithNoFucksToGive · 21/10/2019 19:04

I choose to believe that women did not say that.

It was probably non-women. (The knobby kind.)

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DuMondeB · 21/10/2019 19:07

Perhaps ask them what society is doing to young women that makes them think prostitution is a reasonable route to empowerment?

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kristallen · 21/10/2019 19:07

Aah well I'm someone who thinks that prostitution is rape. I actually know sex workers who are literally that, who do it because they truly choose to - a married couple where he is also a sex worker, he's not a pimp - who have an ideological basis for doing it. Kind if like sexual surrogates. But people like that are such a tiny minority they should not even be factored into the general discussion.

So people think I'm anti women's rights because I do not view rental of orifaces as liberating. My argument usually goes along the lines of what consent is - has to be given freely and willingly. When you cannot say no, cannot change your mind half way through, because you're afraid he'll become (more) violent, or because you need that money to pay your pimp, pay for your kids' clothes, your electricity bill or drug habit, then you cannot give consent. Nobody can really argue against that because it's true that if you choose that rather than a lawyer or a nurse, your career will be to rent orifaces, then your income depends entirely on you NOT saying No. Women who sell sex are rated online and unhappy punters will be sure to let others know.

So any man buying sex from a woman can not know whether she's truly loving his sweaty cock and stinky armpits, or she's faking it because she's afraid/needs the money.

And for all those who argue it's liberating, I ask when they discussed this career option with their daughters. Why they don't feel the need to be liberated themselves. When they're planning on setting up shop themselves.

And I also ask why there are so few men who take this liberation, why only women need liberating. After all, it's usually woke people who say it's liberating and woke men like to be free from constraints just as much as woke women. Why are all these people not flocking to "sex work weekends"? Learn how to Market Your Orifices in 3 Easy Steps would surely be a goldmine!!

If it's so liberating, why is it only women in dire need of money, or trafficked women, who are doing it? Why not grammar school leavers? Why aren't all girls' private schools including it in careers advice for their girls?

I'll stop there. No doubt someone will be along to call me a swerf shortly. I'd rather be called a name then support the commodification of women for men's pleasure while gaslighting the women who are doing it by telling them they're "empowered".

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DuMondeB · 21/10/2019 19:21

I wrote this on a FWR thread a few weeks ago - it was moved to 30 days only and got zapped. Half planned to clean it up and move it to Medium or something... the bold bit is the post I was replying to.

There are many strong SWs who make their own rules and do it very well, run it as a business. Also many who genuinely like the people they meet and choose who to spend their time with, build up a regular clientele
I am not referring to those that are forced into it, that is a totally different situation. Or, those that have no premises to work from and in order to pay the bills will work the streets

There is another category though, probably the biggest one, in my anecdotal experience - the women and girls who are groomed into it, by partners, by poverty, or those who are reacting to childhood sexual abuse (hyper sexualisation, lack of sex worth etc: pdfs.semanticscholar.org/869b/1f3ce1825613b22052240eabb92a3862ee14.pdf)

Others are groomed into by the ‘industry’ itself.
You start out as a hostess, or a lap dancer, or, in my case, as a sex chat line operator (this was 20 years ago, these days I imagine premium snapchat accounts and ‘camming’ are the equivalent entry points).

Once you are in that world, it starts to seems normal. You move from phone sex lines to a fancy table dancing bar in Mayfair. No one tells you that you have to go with the men the other dancers refer to as ‘cases’ (a weird, coy euphemism for punter, left over from decades before, the days that prostitutes carried empty suitcases into hotels, to give an air of respectability) but you’ve got money troubles, and one ‘case’ will pay for that new washing machine you so desperately need, and one more might get you a tumble dryer, because hand washing all those babygros and hanging them up in your little flat like poop-stained bunting is damp and depressing.
So you think, ‘fuck it’ because the baby sitter needs paying anyway, and the other girls all do it, and they are your mates, and your mates are normal, right? Coping, right?
And this case is one of the better ones, youngish, a minor celebrity. Spends money like it’s going out of style.
A couple of years ago, you might even have gone home with him for free, if you were drunk enough, lonely enough, if your self esteem was low enough.
You don’t do that nowadays though, you’ve got commitments. A baby.

But you don’t quite have the bottle to go through with it, so one of the other girls helps you out with a line of coke in the ladies, and it’s that and the overpriced champagne the club made your ‘case’ buy before you could leave the premises that powers you through.
And it’s horrible, worse than you imagined, so you dissociate and get away as quickly as possible but you can’t bear to think about it so you have another line of coke out of the wrap in the bottom of last night’s handbag, even though it’s 10am, but your toddler won’t let you sleep in the daytime anyway and you’ve been up all night.
And maybe getting you hair done or buying a new dress will make you feel better and take away the yicky feeling, and having that much cash in your flat makes you feel unsafe anyway, so you may as well spend some, right?
And before you know it, your shift is starting again, so you take a taxi into town, even though you know it means you still can’t quite afford that washing machine yet but you are tired and the shame of last night keeps creeping through, so you end up buying more coke off of one of the bouncers and every time you go to the loo you share it with your friend, because it’ll be her turn to buy tomorrow night and it really does help you both talk to the customers and stops you getting quite so sloshed on all that Dom Perignon and Cristal that the club makes them buy so they can sit down with you.

And in the loos, bit by bit, you get to know the other girls, they show you photos of their kids and together you set your goals for the shift. You all need the money for something, sometimes it’s for
something positive, like university fees, but it’s more likely to be for something negative, a boyfriend’s gambling debts, perhaps, or council tax arrears, or the 26% interest on the telly you got from that weekly payment store. The one your ex put his foot through when he finally left for good.
You and your girls look out for each other, watch each other’s backs. Sometimes, you can convince your cases to make it a threesome, you get less money that way, no matter how well-off they are, they won’t pay full price for both of you, but there is safety in numbers, and somehow, walking out at daybreak, birds tweeting, arm in arm in with another woman, makes the yick more bearable.

The girl you get on with best, the one you sit with in the late night cafe on the quiet nights when the only money to be made goes directly to the club tells you a secret. She isn’t really Greek, but Bosnian. Her Greek passport is fake, or maybe stolen, provided by people traffickers who drove her across Europe, hours and hours laying under a blanket, teaching herself to breathe without moving her ribs.
Her dad had used all his savings to get her out of their village, her brother had died in the conflict, and she was all he had left.
Her dad’s life savings had tuned out to be little more than a deposit, she had to pay the rest in cash instalments, every Friday.
One Thursday night you find her crying, she’s had a quiet week, she’s got her period, she’s bloated, spotty and bleeding, her usual phone call to her dad didn’t connect, she doesn’t know if he’s alive or dead.
She doesn’t have this week’s cash yet, so she needs to earn the rest tonight but it’s a quiet night and you know she doesn’t have her head in the game. You give her the couple of hundred she needs from your diamanté purse, spend what’s left on coke from the doorman, two coffees in the late night cafe, two night busses home.
You still don’t have quite enough for that washing machine you need, but it’s ok, because there is always next week.

20 years later all you have left of your friend is a Polaroid picture with a biro’d name. Signed with a kiss.

You can’t look her up on Facebook, because the name isn’t really hers, it’s just the fake name from the fake Greek passport. You hope she’s ok, wherever, whoever, she is. You hope she got out. Like you did.

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Springfern · 21/10/2019 19:21

I agree with everything you've said @kristallen ...but someone always pulls out the exception to the rule (e.g. the Belle de Jour type wearing agent provocateur in posh hotels and working to fund her PhD) as a counter argument against the lack of choice/disadvantaged women arguement.

I think a big part of the problem us that there are quite a few of these 'happy hookers' acting as spokespeople for the industry (when they represent less than one percent of it)

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DetroitDownHereWithTheRestOfUs · 21/10/2019 19:22

Promiscuity, whether paid or not, is an individual choice. The happy whore phall(ic)acy is driven by people who are content to be promiscuous and have control over who they take money from and the manner of that transaction. This is not the vast majority of prostituted women's reality.

Actual prostitution not a glamorized intagrammed pretty woman approximation of the experience is sex slavery and is not a choice for anyone other than the slave driving John's who keep these women, women like us, our sisters, in chains of desperation and misery.

Sucking filthy dick, trying to stop mem removing condoms, living minute to minute trying to stay alive, get out of cars when your gut is telling you danger, is not empowering, it's desperation talking, whether driven by poverty or addiction. It's total helplessness and vulnerability.

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Inebriati · 21/10/2019 19:24

I say they are using a lazy argument to avoid doing anything concrete or constructive to assist poor women who don't want to have to enter prostitution in the first place.

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LokisLover · 21/10/2019 19:34

Wow @DuMondeB that’s makes very powerful reading.

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kristallen · 21/10/2019 20:04

Springfern I agree with them that there are some who are truly empowered. But then what about the ones who aren't? As sex trafficking is bigger business than drug dealing, and they themselves usually are not people (nor are their friends) who would consider it even as a weekend hobby to feel empowered, then it stands to reason that there are a LOT of women who don't get the choice to say No and not suffer as a result.

It's also useful to separate out the difference between not judging a woman for having been, or being, some kind of sex worker, empowered or not, and saying that the industry, run by men, is not empowering. Women who are sex workers of any type have to keep their wits about them in a way most of us simply couldn't do daily. There's frequently this idea that people like me pity or judge these women as stupid or in some way inferior. I absolutely don't (as I sense you don't either) and try to convey that.

But I DEFINITELY judge middle class woke folk who think it's empowering..for poor women. If they worked for a pimp at weekends themselves, after the ritual rape and beating and threats, so they know who is boss, to get themselves more empowered I'd be more inclined to think of them differently.

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Themyscira · 21/10/2019 20:05

Julie Bindel said it best, I think. A woman's orifice is not a workplace.

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kristallen · 21/10/2019 20:10

Julie Bindel is of course right, but those who don't want to see it just reply that we don't have the right to determine what other women can do with their bodies...

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Goosefoot · 21/10/2019 20:29

Sometimes I think that it can be helpful, instead of trying to think of the best argument for your own POV, is to try and think about the weaknesses, or the ways in which the other POV is most convincing. It makes it possible to really make a much stronger argument that really addresses the concerns of the other perspective.

A real concern people have about the view you have of sex work is where do you draw the line in saying that people have no agency, and what would be the consequences of that. For example, one argument says that the nature of sex work is so prone to exploitation that it isn't really possible to allow it in a safe way. I tend to think this is probably the simplest argument to make that can work for people who have varying views about the nature of sex for money - everyone understands that some types of business may to too prone to exploitation to allow, and so justify curtailing people's personal choices, even if in some ideal cases it might be fine. If you make this though argument someone can suggest that certain systems or regulation might reduce the problems enough that it should be allowed.
On the other hand, if you want to argue that no one can reasonably make choices about sex for money, ever, that may have a lot of other implications about the choices people can make. What about stripping, or being nude in a non-porn film, etc. What about unpaid sexual activity, are their things people can't consent to and are we comfortable telling people that, making laws about it? What about pay for other things that could be dangerous, does that compromise our choices?

There are a lot of assumptions that go unspoken about these things in such discussions, but they affect people's sense of what the right answer is anyway. So if you can address them in a discussion it can help people think a different way about it.

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ChattyLion · 21/10/2019 20:30

DuMonde Flowers

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Karabair · 21/10/2019 20:37

As them what exactly does empowerment mean to them? What power does a prostituted woman gain? Does she have power in the real world? Power to change her life, improve things she doesn't like? Prostituted women sadly are very often shunned by society as a whole, woke spaces notwithstanding.

Ask them if they think it's right for a man to pay for a woman for access to her vagina and mouth. Do they think he is empowered by the transaction?

Tell them what you know. They've bought into a fantasy, they clearly have no idea what prostitution is really like. You can tell them as you do know wat it is really like.

Finally, why isn't prostitution a man's choice? Male prostitutes are vanishingly rare, If it's so empowering, men would be doing it. Instead they get real power, running businesses, becoming politicians, owning vast areas of land.

It must be hard when it's your friends though.

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Fizzypoo · 21/10/2019 20:41

@DuMondeB I have no words, but I heard you and what you said was powerful.

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MrsTerryPratchett · 21/10/2019 20:46

but someone always pulls out the exception to the rule (e.g. the Belle de Jour type wearing agent provocateur in posh hotels and working to fund her PhD) as a counter argument against the lack of choice/disadvantaged women arguement.

And I always say OK, take away poor women, trafficked women, women who started this underage, addicted women, women with abusive partners, women abused in childhood and homeless women... how many women do you think are left? They would be millionaires. Because there wouldn't be 5 quid blows jobs with none of those women available. There wouldn't be ugly, smelly, dirty, violent men getting sex because those women would be able to choose. There wouldn't be mega brothels or red lights districts.

The whole industry runs on abuse, addiction and poverty. Not empowerment.

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MrsTerryPratchett · 21/10/2019 20:49

I also like to focus on the customer rather than the prostitute.

Rather than 'empowering for women'... what kind of man wants to stick his cock in the mouth, vagina or anus of someone he knows for a fact wouldn't consent without cash? A rapist, that's who. If you have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you... that's who you are.

The whole industry is based on serving rapists. Not empowering.

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BiologyIsReal · 21/10/2019 20:49

I would ask them to explain exactly and clearly in what way they are empowered by sex work.

That, of course, excludes earning money, which can be done by any other job and is not exclusive to prostitution.

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