Am I reading the law wrong or are these schools in Scotland breaking it?

[miri1985]

Saw this article linked elsewhere about 2 primary schools in Scotland replacing all their facilities with "gender neutral" ones. www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3104261/furious-parents-renfrewshire-schools-gender-neutral-toilets/

Knew the law in England but was curious to see if it was different in Scotland

"15(1).......Provided that in every school which is not designed exclusively for girls half the accommodation shall be for boys and not more than one third of the appliances for boys shall be water closets and the remainder shall be urinals."

www.legislation.gov.uk/all?title=school%20premises%20scotland

Thats from the 1967 Act, there were 2 amendments in 1973 and 1979 but they didn't amend that part in any significant way. To me the only way that provision can be interpreted is that boys and girls are supposed to have separate facilities and that no less than 2/3 of boys facilities shall be urinals.

I don't think I've gotten the law wrong but please correct me if I have. Would love to know where the schools in question are getting their legal advice, the council say they've done an impact assessment and there will be no impact at all, would love to know how they came to that conclusion.

Placemarking. Good question.

Parents are raising hell over these violations of law.

Ask to see their impact assessment?

Do the cubicles have floor to ceiling walls for privacy?

Unisex should have a sink within the cubicle also.

As I understand it, the 1967 regulations are still in force so schools should be splitting facilities between boys and girls and there is no reference to unisex. The consultation has no current force in law, so councils should still be abiding by the existing regulations.

Short answer, they are breaking the law! And deserve to be made to panic by having it pointed out!

I don't do Scots paw but on my reading the original provision was amended by reg 7 of the 1973 amendments so it now means that you don't need urinals as long as you have a 1:10 ratio for toilets:pupils.

Do the cubicles have floor to ceiling walls for privacy?

They have to have "a partition sufficient to secure privacy and, except in relation to a nursery school or nursery class in a primary school, with a lockable door." I suppose in a gender neutral context you would want them to be floor to ceiling because there are extra privacy risks.

*Scots law

Except how likely do we think the people who wrote the new guidelines are to admit that there are extra privacy risks? That's a girl's penis, that is, so what's the problem?

Except how likely do we think the people who wrote the new guidelines are to admit that there are extra privacy risks? That's a girl's penis, that is, so what's the problem?

I thought from the article it's going to be one set of toilets for everyone, so everyone will be in the same loos regardless of sex and "gender identity".

A local councillor (in Scotland) tried to tell me that schools never had a policy of sex segregation for toilets, changing rooms etc.

Here's what the law says in England (from the Department for Education's non-statutory guidance on 'gender segregation in mixed schools, June 2018):

It is permissible for toilet and boarding accommodation facilities to be separate as they are captured under existing statutory exceptions. Separate toilet and washing facilities must be provided for boys and girls aged 8 years and over pursuant to Regulation 4 of the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012, which falls within
the exemption provided for in Schedule 22 of the Equality Act 2010.

Any Scots lawyers on here who can help? Would love to know.

Oooh, just logged into Twitter and spotted this at top of timeline:

twitter.com/Scottish_Women/status/1033642962062897152

A local councillor (in Scotland) tried to tell me that schools never had a policy of sex segregation for toilets, changing rooms etc.

Pretty sure that we must have people here who can confirm that they were not in fact changing with the boys after netball in secondary school.

I've heard of some primary schools having small children change together, so maybe it was left to the discretion of the individual school up to a certain age? My friend used to work in a nursery school (not in Scotland) and even at that age they separated the children when they changed clothes.

I don't do Scots paw but on my reading the original provision was amended by reg 7 of the 1973 amendments so it now means that you don't need urinals as long as you have a 1:10 ratio for toilets:pupils.

Ah, ignore me. I've just had another look at the legislation and that bit is only relevant to nurseries and nursery classes.

Apologies for any confusion!

Judging by what this councillor wrote, the schools' sex segregation policy was no more than a social convention. HOWEVER, as that twitter thread shows, there ARE specific regulations about things like toilets that schools must adhere to.

At my kids' primary school, the kids got changed together for PE in the classroom until P6&7. Although, with some girls entering puberty early, I remember calls for that to be extended downwards to P5.

Thanks, Howonearth!

That Scottish Women template is excellent for anyone in Scotland who wants to write to the council!

Our school (along with a number of others in the area) have "open plan" toilets. Basically they are at the end of a corridor - so walls around 3 sides - and then the fourth "wall" is open. The cubicles are properly constructed with floor to ceiling walls and substantial doors - proper doors like you'd have for a room door and certainly far superior to those used in gender segregated bathrooms. The cubicle doors are marked "male" and "female" however that's not always adhered to. There are sinks and mirrors in the middle of the area.

The motivation for this design was not to remove the logistical difficulties of meeting the needs of transgender students but to address the age old concerns of bullying and other inappropriate behaviour in the toilets - and it has worked. Pupils have been surveyed a number of times and consistently say they are happy with the toilets as they are. We've not had to deal with a transgender child yet but the upside of these toilets is that at least bathroom arrangements should be straightforward.

I understand why some people have concerns - I did too! - but having worked in this environment for a number of years now I can genuinely say it works.

I can understand the bullying aspect, Margot, but surely there are times when girls, especially, need privacy with enclosed washing facilities. The main one being dealing with any period related accidents.

If I'm not mistaken haven't the Nordic countries been using gender-neutral toilets and changing rooms for many years now?

I'm cringing when I think of the money these schools spent on this and how much it will cost to put them back as they were with urinals. Its fairly obvious the council was involved in this decision and someone there thinks they don't have to respect the law.

The law may well change to allow for unisex facilities but it is the height of hubris to think that you can precede legislative changes just because you want to

There was a good opinion piece in The Herald yesterday about the toilet issue: www.heraldscotland.com/news/16598673.catriona-stewart-do-unisex-toilets-deserve-all-this-fuss/

I was at a local high school and they had open plan toilets, similar to what margot describes above, but I don't remember seeing male or female on any of the doors. They had separate male/ female toilets elsewhere and the changing rooms that I saw were separate.
DS is at primary and they change separately.