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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anne Lister was not a Lesbian but 'Gender Non-Conforming.'

255 replies

EverlastingGodstopper · 26/07/2018 17:15

Let's see if anyone can spot the problem with this plaque.

I have just been banned from York LGBT History's FB page for pointing out that Anne Lister was a lesbian, and that gender is unrelated to one's sexual orientation. Apparently, that is "explicitly transphobic."

We are living in a Black Mirror episode.

Anne Lister was not a Lesbian but 'Gender Non-Conforming.'
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VickyEadie · 26/07/2018 17:19

HOW is telling the truth - that she was lesbian - "transphobic"?

PyeWackets · 26/07/2018 17:23

Bloody, bloody hell.

The only lesbians left will be male, guarantee it. They are shredding all meaningful language that women use to describe their experiences.

We will have no name left for our sex or for homosexual women.

EverlastingGodstopper · 26/07/2018 17:24

I don't know! They have issued this statement:

"We understand and empathise with the upset the wording has caused to a number of lesbians and thank Kit for his helpful response as a member of the team behind this project. We also thank those who have made respectful and entirely reasonable contributions on this post, and are confident the team behind the plaque take such comments seriously and are listening to your feedback.

However we absolutely do not condone transphobia and anti-trans ideology, sentiment and discourse. York LGBT History Month was founded and has been almost consistently led by trans individuals, including trans women, trans men and non-binary folk, and we seek to represent the breadth of our community. From the very start we have stated that while the LGBT in our name stands for lesbian, gay, bi and trans, we take it to include all non-normative/marginalised gender, romantic and sexual identities and intersex.

We have deleted a number of comments on this post that are either explicitly transphobic or that strongly echo anti-trans discourse, and in some cases have blocked individuals from continuing to comment on this or any other of our posts. As such, some of the comment threads on this post are now half conversations. We will continue to monitor the post and will delete any further comments of a similar nature in the interests of safeguarding our trans followers and not enabling a platform for transphobia and trans hatred.

A quick note on terms and history: trans people can be lesbian, and lesbians can be trans. They are not mutually exclusive: we do not accept the viewpoint that to be a lesbian you must be assigned female at birth, nor that to be a lesbian you must only be attracted to women assigned female at birth. Perhaps more importantly and more pertinent to some of the comments raised here, both terms have taken on their current meaning since the time of Anne Lister. Both are therefore applied retrospectively, based on a resemblance between what Anne did in life and what those terms mean today, and so neither term can be claimed to be a perfect fit. "Gender non-conforming" can be used to describe a broad range of identities, expression and behaviours that are non-normative and/or marginalised by a particular society or culture at a particular moment in time. When the term "gender non-conforming" is used to describe people who are alive today, it's often used to describe non-binary and/or genderqueer people, which might be the root of some of the issues here. In fact, gender non-conforming is used on the plaque as a description of how Anne Lister lived. It's a term that can be used to describe a range of LGBT and queer identities, including but not limited to non-binary people."

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Echobelly · 26/07/2018 17:25

I can totally see why lesbians in the past may have adopted male dress, maybe even nominal male identities as a way to survive, but that didn't make them trans men or identify as male, so unless they actually went on record as saying they were male or non-binary we shouldn't be saying they were.

No one seems to be reclaiming gay men who sometimes cross dressed as trans women.

VickyEadie · 26/07/2018 17:25

Utter and complete nonsense.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 26/07/2018 17:25

While lesbians are by definition gnc (heterosexuality being at the core of gender role), that plaque is shit.

DuelingFanjo · 26/07/2018 17:26

FFS

Speechless.

EverlastingGodstopper · 26/07/2018 17:27

It's reassuring that most comments on their FB page say that Anne was, indeed, a lesbian and that this is lesbian erasure. I am a lesbian in York, and right now, am ashamed of the LGBT group in my own city.

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VickyEadie · 26/07/2018 17:28

I see that they put at the top of their justification that "York LGBT History Month was founded and has been almost consistently led by trans individuals, including trans women, trans men and non-binary folk"

So fucking what? It doesn't give them carte blanche to re-label all lesbians (except the trans ones) GNC.

VickyEadie · 26/07/2018 17:28

EverlastingGobstopper

It IS lesbian erasure. It completely IS.

drwitch · 26/07/2018 17:30

this is a nice bio of her by Jeanette Winterson

link

Loopytiles · 26/07/2018 17:30

That statement from the LGBT group is objectionable.

Guess it depends how one interprets “gender non conforming” - doesn’t necessarily equate to “trans”? Eg could just mean she didn’t dress in ways that were conventional for british women of her time? But guess had that been the meaning it could have just said “non conforming”!

drwitch · 26/07/2018 17:31

sorry wrong link its

proper one

FirstShinyRobe · 26/07/2018 17:31

I still haven't seen the list that is used to decide whether one is gnc or gender conforming. There must be one, mustn't there?

SPOFS · 26/07/2018 17:32

This is very very offensive. Image if they had done this to a gay man...

LangCleg · 26/07/2018 17:33

Fucking hell.

VickyEadie · 26/07/2018 17:34

I still haven't seen the list that is used to decide whether one is gnc or gender conforming. There must be one, mustn't there?

We're all agog to see it.

For the GNC police's information, I'm in my usual hot weather gear of men's long Nike shorts, Men's t shirt and bare feet. I'm definitely, 100% a woman, and have been from the moment the midwife told my mother "Ooh, it's a lovely big girl!"

AtreidesFreeWoman · 26/07/2018 17:35

That's incredibly offensive imho

ErrolTheDragon · 26/07/2018 17:35

I hadn't heard of Anne Lister - current version of wiki at least hasn't retrotransed her

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Lister

Why the heck couldn't the plaque have said 'gender nonconforming lesbian entrepreneur' - that appears to be accurate and I don't see how it could have upset anyone?Confused

Rednaxela · 26/07/2018 17:35

Wtf? This is scary

EverlastingGodstopper · 26/07/2018 17:38

Errol,

They said they had space constraints on wording. But then, surely, 'lesbian' would have been better?

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drwitch · 26/07/2018 17:39

"Anne Lister did not really think of herself as acting like a man – simply she wanted to be independent, free-thinking, and crucially, to share her life with another woman. But such a conscious understanding of herself, and her premeditated frank desires towards other woman would – and did- get her into trouble"

from the JW page -

guess she would be classified as a TERF these days

SomeDyke · 26/07/2018 17:39

She was a lesbian, end of.

Except lesbians (and homosexuality) is now transphobic, obviously.

Lesbian erasure, in great big sparkly rainbow letters.

Yet again, the love that dare not speak it's name.

UglyCathKidstonBag · 26/07/2018 17:41

”York LGBT History Month was founded and has been almost consistently led by trans individuals, including trans women, trans men and non-binary folk”

And this gives them the right to rainbow wash a sexuality and Lister’s life out of existence?

AsAProfessionalFekko · 26/07/2018 17:42

A woman married a woman. So that would be....

Oh come on, I know this one, that would beeeeee - oh its on the tip of my tongue. Begins with a E - no L, Lemon, lala, loo-leee, lee-beee... I'll get it in a minute...