Susie Green’s Ted Talk

[Thanksforthatamazingpost]

Just watched this with great interest.

It is callled “transgender:a mother’s story”

I found it sad and thought provoking

I don’t think Mermaids should have such influence. No mother who has made these kind of decisions could ever hope to be objective about other people’s children. It’s not appropriate for Susie Green to have such a voice.

I also suspect that Susie Green did not see the “fashion” for young -people- identifying -as -trans coming. To be fair to her, it was probably the last thing she expected :(

There's another thread here discussing her Ted talk.

Thanks!

Also the considerable legal cost of suing any and every cancer charity that uses the words "for the cure" because SGK owns those words and are every bit as adamant as Disney about their property.

I don’t see profiteering.
I see commitment to choices that have been made and cannot be unmade..

I haven’t watched it, but is there any evidence to suggest she’s using money for anything other than promoting a cause that she truly believes in? To feel that her view is more emotionally driven than rational (and thus perhaps risky) is a long way from any accusation of profiteering or even monetising.

Please don’t accuse or even imply anything that can’t be backed up.

She's not making a lot of money out of this. The annual report and accounts to 31.3.2017 are here. Mermaids has 3 ft and 1 pt employees and a growing number of volunteers. Total wage bill is £58k and that includes NI etc as well as the actual salaries.

This year's accounts may show an increase in staff as last year's show that they were successful in getting a number of grants to fund future growth.

I don’t think she set up the Charity? I believe she was a volunteer and only recently became CEO when it got COI (?) status. She clearly knows a lot about the subject after going through it with her own daughter and volunteering for many years. I’d be inclined to say she likely knows more about trans issues around young people than the majority of people who have opinions about the subject (but no direct experience or knowledge).

I personally found her talk incredibly moving and her now grown-up daughter seems incredibly well adjusted and happy. Surely that’s what’s important?

Many parents who have a child with a specific issue become 'expert' in it, but it's often only expertise in one aspect of the condition. That's what we see with SG I think. She's hardly independent, nor claims to be. If my child had, say, diabetes, I am sure I would be researching away like mad, trying to get the best treatment etc. But would that fit me for the role of educator? IMO not without having suitable training of some sort. Mermaids is not merely a family support group. As far as I know none of the staff listed on their website has any relevant qualifications in the area they are active in. So Is their role in education justifiable?

AncientLights, that's a good post.

RedHoodGirl, yes, SG's child is happy now, and may continue to be with the passing years. It's clear from the many very informative posts I've read here and on Twitter from the old school transsexuals that transitioning is a real help psychologically to many people suffering agonies with body/gender dysphoria. However, this child transitioned so young there was no chance to see if the dysphoria would have alleviated by itself, as the boy (as he was then) went on puberty blockers at 12 or 13 and then had SRS at 16. The research indicates, as far as I'm aware, that in cases where a child does go through natural puberty (perhaps especially if they have very good support from family, friends, school, professionals) most will conclude by the late teens or at most early 20s that in fact they can cope with their natal sex.

I find that plausible. I had a fairly easy passage through adolescence compared with many, but I do remember the distinct feeling of relief in my early 20s when I stopped worrying about other girls looking at me with disdain. I just felt more comfortable in my own skin. This is very common, isn't it?

Jackie Green didn't get the chance to see if that would have happened and is now dependent on lifelong medical support of various kinds. Probably infertile too. I find that very sad. For SG, it was clearly a price worth paying because she sincerely believed that otherwise her child would commit suicide. Agonising, but does that make her a good person to advise others in similar difficulties?

I also agree with AncientLights.

When I was making autism-related choices, there was a fair bit of pressure from other parents. They knew a lot but did not have insight into their own subjectivity.

It is much healthier to have conflicting pressure groups.

I personally don’t like critiquing the choices Susie and Jackie Green made because we will never ever know every detail of that family’s story.

I do worry deeply about her advising other families though.

I believe that SG’s child actually attempted suicide on a number of occasions. Surely too we must give weight to the fact that a mother knows their own child better than anyone? As strangers on a chat forum we really don’t have any insight into what her child was going through, or what SG’s thoughts were?

I find it somewhat disturbing that so many people think they know what SG’s motivations were, and are quick to criticise - particularly on a woman / Mum-centric board like Mumsnet. It seems reminiscent of of times past when mothers were criticised for feeding their babies formula, or vaccinating / not vaccinating their child.

Also claims that ‘parents / individuals involved aren’t experts’ - surely they can be some of the best people to advise on a subject, as they live it and encounter every aspect? I’m reminded of the film ‘Lorenzo’s Oil’ where it was only through the dedicated persistence of two parents that a treatment was uncovered for their child’s debilitating illness. They were later honoured with Doctorates for their incredibly in-depth and important research.

We must never invalidate the importance of the individual experience - in all these discussions about trans issues, it seems too much weight has been given to hypothetical scenarios and supposing someone else’s intentions, or guessing what goes on within specific charities and organisations.

Hi RedHoodGirl,

I agree with you about it being silly to act as if we knew anything about this particular family. SG didn’t ask for this.

Happy to accept the idea of individual expertise too but this is different from a physical illness.

It’s very similar to autism. We go through a journey with our own child. The pain and intensity is seared in the brain. We want to help others. And that is precisely the point where we do most harm blundering about advising other families. I had to withdraw completely from real life support groups because other parents viewed all my questions and choices through the prism of their own hopes and fears about whether they had done the right thing for their own family.

I can understand that seeing your child with acute gender dysphoria would be horrible and you'd probably want to do anything to help. However, if my dcs go through this i'll be primarily searching for a therapist who can look at the whole picture in order to help my child. Hormone treatment and surgery should only ever be the last resort because they're largely irreversable. My main aim would be to help my child to once again love themselves body and soul.

Redwood.

Others have made the point too but it really isn't any kind of balanced approach, looking at this '360 degrees' that Mermaids are offering. By all means form parent support groups, though some wouldn't find their approach palatible and would leave, but to train the NHS, police and others with funding? I feel that is wrong.

Transgender people often state that they, like Jackie Green, 'knew' from an early age that they were trans. But the majority of pre-pubertal children who show signs of gender dysphoria grow up to be non-dysphoric after puberty.

So whilst it might be true that all transgender people knew they were trans early in life, we cannot assume that anyone who suffers from gender dysphoria early in life will grow up to be trans. It is more likely that children who are gender dysphoric early in life will no longer be dysphoric as adults.

The problem with Susie Green advising other parents, is that she is likely to be blind to the possibility of desistance. Because, consciously or not, she wants affirmation that she did the right thing for her own child. She may not want to acknowledge that children might change their minds because that might make her doubt whether she did the right thing.

Someone who is convinced that there is only one way forward is a dangerous individual to have in charge, when, for the majority, that single route is not the right one.

@OldCrone While I agree that many trans adults knew they were trans early in life, and that not all young people who suffer dysphoria may continue to be trans adults, we can not pre-suppose what Susie Green’s intentions are in the running of Mermaids. Just because she chose one route, doesn’t mean that she’s averse to others choosing different routes. How do we know that Mermaids is not just a forum where parents who are in similar situations support each other? I’ve heard people say that they also do training - surely that’s no different from any other organisation offering diversity training? As mentioned in my previous post, I would assume they talk from a mixture of first-hand experience and acquired knowledge (in the same way that many external organisations do, whether it be on the subject of race, religion, disability etc). In fact, I’d be more inclined to believe someone who has experienced something firsthand, rather than someone with only theoretical knowledge).

I’ve heard people say that they also do training - surely that’s no different from any other organisation offering diversity training?

They should not be training the NHS and the police. Their advice goes against current ethical standards for medical treatment of gender dysphoria and NICE guidelines.

Their training of the police has already resulted in one very questionable interview under caution and a potential conflict of interest.

I rationally can’t see that Mermaids giving diversity training to the Police has had any impact on any Police investigation? As far as I’m aware, there are many criteria and checks and balances that a report to the Police needs to go through before they decide to investigate, let alone interview someone. I suspect there’s more to that particular case than we have been led to believe. I would anticipate that any person who is being questioned will maintain their innocence / look to deflect negative attention away from themselves. I have trust in the Police investigative process that they are able to see through any bias and deflection and evaluate whether an actual crime has been committed. Separate from that, the CPS will evaluate the evidence and decide whether it’s worth prosecuting? Sometimes the CPS can choose not to proceed if they can’t guarantee a prosecution - This is happening more and more these days, especially with such stretched budgets.

I found that video disturbing in a few ways:

1. How the 'God made a mistake' comment freaked her out so much - the child was 4/5 - does she believe in 'souls' and 'past lives'?
2. Stereotyping - the thing about princess dresses, the pageant thing - all really camp stuff that most girls don't really go in for - stuff that only a minor contingent of women and a in fact probably greater contingent of gay men like ime.
3. She lied to her child that there existed an operation that could make a boy a girl. It's not true. Once told, child set their heart on the surgical course of action from an age when they would not be able to understand consequences like infertility.
4. The possibly homophobic dad - what was his beef with all the stereotypical 'girls' toys?
5. What child therapy did she seek before the child was informed about surgery? Perhaps the dad being an intolerant blokey bloke and the mum being more accepting made the effeminate child identify more strongly with her?

The whole thing is creepy and I don't think the child seems 'well adjusted' as others have said - I think they are living a sexist fantasy of what female means - pageants, being 'attractive'. They don't have 'female DNA', they have male chromosomes - a grounded/well-adjusted person would be able to admit that.

I don't think SG is a bad person, but I think beliefs in past lives/souls and fanciful ideas about SRS actually being a 'sex change' (with a the imput of a possibly dad) put a non-conforming child down a road of sterility, poor sex life and life-long drug dependency by adulthood, but she sincerely believes this is the right thing.

I rationally can’t see that Mermaids giving diversity training to the Police has had any impact on any Police investigation?

Someone interviewed under caution for a balanced, factual tweet criticising Mermaids? By a police force that had been trained by mermaids, and the complaint appears to have been made by a source within the force linked to mermaids?

Yeah I’d say that’s a pretty serious erosion of what passes for freedom of speech and thought in this country. And impartiality and all that.

The founder of the charity took her child abroad for surgery that’s illegal in the UK, to Thailand who later responded by changing their laws around such surgery. She has not faced prosecution for taking a child out of the country for surgery involving the genitalia that is illegal here. Parents can be charged if they take their children abroad for FGM for example. But this person was not charged. Why not? What are their links with law enforcement? Do these count as a conflict of interest?

And the person who pointed this out was interviewed under caution.

I find that extremely worrying. I’d like to know how people justify NOT finding that an extremelybworrying conflict of interest.

Susie Green's choices about her own child are one thing.

I can sense everyone treading extremely carefully in this thread, it is chilling.

However I still want ti speak about the specific case in the TED talk because it is important to give children proper education about reproduction/etc, for example, a 4 or 5 year old you can say "men and men or women and women can love each other and get married, but only a man and woman can make a baby together and only women have wombs and can get pregnant and give birth" that gives them plenty to think about. It is unethical to tell children they can have an operation to change sex.

Unless SG was encouraged to have realistic conversations with JG, I think Mermaids weren't being properly supportive, so I have issues with Mermaids before she became CEO.

I can sense everyone treading extremely carefully in this thread, it is chilling

Yes that’s pretty much what I’m trying to put across - that politely questioning whether human beings can actually change sex (no, they cannot, says science) is actually considered a hate crime that can result in real life consequences.

How can a considered debate be held in a climate where even using an incorrect pronoun will have you hounded? There are real children at the sharp end of this - real children under pressure from an increasingly narrow enforced set of gender norms. And those children are being offered permanently damaging and altering surgery.

I cannot think of ANY other area or ideology where this would be tolerated without question, or where robust, open debate would not be happening. And it’s BECAUSE of this fear that it isn’t.