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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Examples of women and girls self excluding in Scotland/being excluded (post re the GRA)

22 replies

leyat · 21/02/2018 12:53

A group of us in Scotland are planning on working to produce a list of demands we intend on sending to the Scottish govt shortly after the GRA consultation closes, which we will ask for a direct response to from Angela Constance. We will also send these demands to the Equalities Committee MSP's. The point is to make our voices heard. If we come together as one group of feminist women with one voice, we will be much harder to ignore.

One of the areas I wanted to focus on was highlighting how women and girls are already affected by current gender laws and how trans inclusion is handled in Scotland, perhaps especially in schools. If anyone would be happy to post or message me their experiences it would be great to be able to point to the very real exclusion that is already happening. I already have some examples from women and girls I know, but it would be great to have more. Obviously this is all anonymous, it's just to get a sense of the ways this is happening; the point is we need to demand that the Scottish government assesses this, and giving examples of what is happening now will help us make that case.

Thanks for any help any of you can give! :D

OP posts:

Lemonjello · 21/02/2018 21:31

I don’t have any examples but bumping for you.

Interested to hear more about your group too. Is it women’s spaces in Scotland? I saw they were working with a woman’s place to put on the edinburgh talk but don’t know much about them. Really hoping they take the same calm, measured and adult approach the wpuk do.

If you are highlighting those shameful schools guidelines produced by lgbt youth Scotland, please for the love of god pick up on the fact that girls complaining about having to share changing rooms with boys should be reminded of the schools ethos of equality, inclusion and respect. The Scottish government thinks it is disrespectful for girls not to want to be in a state of undress next to boys. Gives me the absolute fucking rage.

sweetkitty · 21/02/2018 21:39

I'm disgusted with this at the moment. I have a 13yo DD who is getting to grips with her body and coping with periods and all that it entails. I want her to have a safe space at school to get changed and deal with this all.

Freshlylaidterf · 21/02/2018 21:41

Lemonjello
Agree with all you said. Especially L G B T Scotland guidlines.
leyat
I work in an FE college and just this week have had three emails to attend different Trans training, one by stonewall. Theres just no escaping it.

Original poster

leyat · 22/02/2018 11:51

Yup the guidelines are awful, I will definitely be highlighting that in what we put together. The position girls are being put into is totally unacceptable. There are some women involved with Woman's Spaces and others who are basically working together to try to write this initial set of demands and then we will have to think about how we want to move forward in terms of becoming one group working on women's rights in Scotland. This is all about more than the GRA imo, this is a long game we're in, and I think we need a women's group in Scotland to address this, because we know women's organisations won't. The problem is also anonymity; we need to be able to work together without putting anyone at risk. So a lot to think about.

OP posts:

Handbaggage · 22/02/2018 11:56

"The Scottish government thinks it is disrespectful for girls not to want to be in a state of undress next to boys. Gives me the absolute fucking rage."

The Scottish government has disappeared up its own politically correct anus.

Elletorro · 22/02/2018 12:06

Hi there

Not based in Scotland so of limited use to you.

I would approach mosques and synagogues.

Then the women’s football teams and other sporting bodies

Maybe a survey of mothers at primary school and or of nursery schools with very very neutral questions about whether they would attend their local swimming pool if the changing rooms were gender neutral. Be careful not to have leading questions.

I’m thinking the impact of new mothers not feeling safe will mean fewer kids learning to swim.

Handbaggage · 22/02/2018 12:34

Scottish tourism too, if all hotels have to allow men into women's changing rooms it will affect spas and leisure clubs.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 22/02/2018 12:36

I have no useful stories to add, but just wanted to say thank you so much for doing this.

LizzieSiddal · 22/02/2018 12:56

I’m not in Scotland but also wanted to thank you for doing this. It’s such a fab idea. We are hearing costantly in the media about Trans rights and nothing about women’s. This needs to change.

UnCafecito · 22/02/2018 13:45

I am in Scotland and have children at primary school. The local high school has three trans children (all girls.'transitioning' to boys) and is very on message with the govt about it all.

I don't have any personal experience of what's happening but I'll ask parents with kids at the high school.

Very pleased to hear of your efforts.

terryleather · 22/02/2018 15:11

Lemonjello & leyat

Do you think it's still worth writing to the equalities commission at the Scottish Parliament regarding those radge inducing trans guidelines for schools - I've been wanting to do it for a while but I find it hard to be calm enough to put together something that doesn't sound like an unreasonable rant!

leyat

It's fantastic that you are doing this and I'm sorry I don't have any examples that I can give you to help you with this.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 22/02/2018 15:21

Do you think it's still worth writing to the equalities commission at the Scottish Parliament regarding those radge inducing trans guidelines for schools

I did. I may have also sent them the transgender trend guidelines and invited them to compare and contrast

terryleather · 22/02/2018 15:32

ItsAll

Quite bloody right too, it will do them good to look at something sensible on the subject!

Right, this is spurring me on to get writing, it's been a few weeks since I filled in the also radge inducing GRA consultation so maybe I'll be a bit calmer now...

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 22/02/2018 15:50

Does this need to go in Chat? Or AIBU for traffic?

Lemonjello · 22/02/2018 20:51

Yes deffo keep writing.

Original poster

leyat · 23/02/2018 12:12

Thanks for all those helpful suggestions. We want to make it impossible for the Scottish govt to refuse to consider the implications of the legislation as it already stands, including how the govt supports that legislation - i.e. through supporting the awful LGBT guidance given to schools - as well as the implications of these proposed changes, which will only make a bad situation worse for women and girls. We want a response re each demand we make, and if they will not meet those demands we want them to have to explain why. But obviously we want to make as strong a case as possible, to highlight that we are being impacted, because we want them to see why they need to do what we are asking. I'm not without hope here. I just think they may well dismiss consultation responses if we don't do something like this....

OP posts:

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/02/2018 12:26

Actually, I have an example but it would have to remain anonymous.

Staying away from home as part of youth org /youth group sort of thing. Lots of adults of both sexes (all with PVGs) lots of children of both sexes. Sets of toilets and showers in a room labelled male or female. Cubicles were the open at top and bottom type, showers had curtains that wafted when anyone opened the door (frequently as toilets were in there too)

Someone decided it would be more inclusive to make all of the facilities gender neutral and stuck signs on the doors stating this.

One woman felt very uncomfortable about this but felt they had to object. When they objected they were made to feel unreasonable and very much in the wrong. They were the only person that objected. A "compromise" was agreed whereby the toilets/showers would be single sex for an hour in the morning for bigots to have showers. The rest of the time they would remain gender neutral, and anyone who felt uncomfortable with this situation re toilets could use the (fully enclosed) disabled toilet.

As far as this woman was aware there are not any trans identifying people in this group, and generally people stuck to the toilets of their own sex anyway. However she was concerned that the children were not asked about how they felt about this arrangement (presumably against it as they all used the toilets appropriate to their sex).

Interestingly the children were sex segregated for sleeping.

This woman was actually quite distressed about this as she felt very uncomfortable having to speak up in front of everyone, and she is worried that perhaps it should be fine and perhaps she is a bigot. I have obviously pointed her at mumsnet .

Trueheart1 · 23/02/2018 13:21

Bump

Lemonjello · 23/02/2018 20:23

Leya have pm’d you.

Original poster

leyat · 26/02/2018 13:04

Thanks so much for your helpful responses. Not sure if anything is wrong with the messaging on the site, but I have been trying to respond to someone who messaged me some great egs but every time I hit send it won't let me, I have no idea why....

OP posts:

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 26/02/2018 14:12

Contact @MNHQ leyat. Good luck with the piece

PlectrumElectrum · 26/02/2018 18:32

I'm in Scotland - I have a couple of examples. My DD is 12, 1st year at high school. Her school is a brand new building with a large toilet area in the main concourse. The design is 2 long corridors with cubicles designated male & female but joined at an open area for washing hands. So closed cubicles (good) but open mixed washing facilities (poorly thought out setting). No privacy for girls should they want it for hygiene reasons when washing after using the loos. On the face of it, it looks like they've tried to think about everything to keep everyone 'happy' and yet it's girls who lose their privacy.

This isn't particular to Scotland but I'd say until the recent furore over female changing rooms I was a regular customer at both M&S (for me) and top shop (for my DD). I'm not going anywhere near either given their refusal to maintain sex segregated changing facilities as they are able to under the EA. I'm especially angry about the top shop stance as I'd have liked my DD to have had the freedom to shop & buy where she wanted as she gets older & wants to shop for her own clothes. Now we have to think about who actually recognises teenage girls right to privacy when trying on new clothes & figure out where we can be certain there at least a semblance of thought for privacy of teenage girls.

So self restricted in terms of shopping due to lack of sex segregated changing facilities & my DD not able to have privacy after using a loo at school. I can still remember being that age & immature boys trying to embarrass girls by guessing who was on their periods. God help the girl who has to clean up after a heavy period in front of everyone in that school.

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