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Labour party invents new bollocks made-up non-existent definition for woman

(801 Posts)
pisacake Thu 11-Jan-18 14:29:44

labour.org.uk/members/get-involved/national-youth-elections-2018/

Sixteen uses of the word 'self-defining woman'. Zero uses of 'female', 'biology', or plain 'woman'.

'Woman' is now literally meaningless. A woman can be a bog-standard heterosexual teenage male (Lily Madigan), if he says so.

And obviously with half the places reserved for 'self-defining women' (not 'women', 'self-defining women'), then there's not really any reason why men wouldn't define themselves a women, is there?

If misogynistic shits like Lily Madigan can 'self-define as a woman', well ALL men are women, aren't they?

The whole bloody human race is 'self-defined women'.

Stupid Labour.

Gingernaut Thu 11-Jan-18 14:33:31

That's not my party. Fuck. Them.

I resigned when we invaded Iraq and they've done fuck all to tempt me back....angry

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth Thu 11-Jan-18 14:34:26

Fuck them.

I'm done with them

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 14:36:46

OK I'm cancelling my DD now.

Had enough.

I did have a look at how to stop membership the other day and there is no info on their site (!) but I imagine stopping the payments should do it.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth Thu 11-Jan-18 14:36:59

Ha ha Gingernaut, I hadn't even read your reply when I wrote mine.

'Fuck them' is a popular view of Labour now

LizzieSiddal Thu 11-Jan-18 14:37:02

Fucking idiots. angry

I will not be voting labour whilst this lot are in charge.

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 14:39:34

Done.

Fuck that.

Not for the 100% but for the 50%. Only interested in men.

Labour women who are more embedded in the party who don't agree with this shit must be baffled as to which way to turn.

LangCleg Thu 11-Jan-18 14:42:47

Labour women who are more embedded in the party who don't agree with this shit must be baffled as to which way to turn.

This is me. Member since forever. Do I stay and fight it? (Already badgering in my CLP, which agrees with me. But we're in a safe Tory seat so LP apparatchiks don't give a shit what we think). Or would it be more effective to resign membership citing my reasons why and persuade others to do the same?

Whatslovegottodo Thu 11-Jan-18 14:42:49

I have about had it with labour over this shit.
Then I remember they are our only hope to stop this incompetent government from destroying our NHS, dismantling benefits for the most vulnerable in society and generally fucking up the whole country!
So for now I, reluctantly, stay. For what is the alternative?

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 14:46:15

LangCleg I feel for you. I don't know what the answer is.

I am a bit of a shop around politics person and have been labour >> libs >> green >> labour over the last decade or so grin

I join one then they do something to show that they HATE WOMEN and so I flounce off.

Bottom line is no party is interested in women. And note the WEP has not even made my list...

LangCleg Thu 11-Jan-18 14:51:21

UpABitLate - I've emailed Dawn Butler THREE times now. No reply. I keep telling myself no reply is better than a disingenuous one because she's knows it's all dreadful but really - wishful thinking, amirite?

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 14:55:42

God only knows. Who knows what anyone thinks any more.

Well apart from labour are no longer interested in progressing women and girls, given that they are happy to see 50% men and 50% "not men" aka gender nonconforming men & mras who fancy a bit of a laugh

jeaux90 Thu 11-Jan-18 14:57:26

Aren't they in breach of the equalities act with this crap? Anyway, not voting for them ever again unless they turn this shit off.

IrkThePurist Thu 11-Jan-18 15:00:20

Congratulations Labour, now you're in breach of The Equality Act 2010. Even Justine Greening's office say so.

Labour can fuck off. Women should strike and withdraw all their free labour stuffing envelopes and answering the phone.

FattyCat Thu 11-Jan-18 15:00:48

I'm done too. They can get their bromentum lady dudes to knock on doors in my (tory) borough.

OlennasWimple Thu 11-Jan-18 15:02:48

<sigh>

Ereshkigal Thu 11-Jan-18 15:03:56

Oh what nonsense. Just fuck off.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth Thu 11-Jan-18 15:05:36

I understand the staying in the party thing to do some good approach, but the stone headed bastards clearly don't give a shit about women and tbh, until they change that, I think GC women should leave.

I don't want them in power if they are supporting this regressive shit. Think about the amount of harm they could to to women if they had a parliamentary majority? It would be us woman turkeys having voted for Christmas. (What's a female turkey called?)

This is dangerous. And quite frankly, although my heart is in left wing principles and egalitarianism, there is FUCK ALL egalitarian about these policies.

pisacake Thu 11-Jan-18 15:10:09

turkeys are hens and toms I think. the young are jakes & jennies.

except obviously now jake is also jenny.

theyoniwayisnorthwards Thu 11-Jan-18 15:11:03

I'm a labour member and a feminist and I'm totally confused. Can you explain to me what you are angry about please? Have I missed something?

Ereshkigal Thu 11-Jan-18 15:12:06

I think the OP explains it quite well. Start there.

theyoniwayisnorthwards Thu 11-Jan-18 15:15:43

Well of course I read the OP and I don't understand or I wouldn't have asked.

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 15:16:41

Where previously they were trying to get a balance between men and women in certain positions / groups

Now they have changed the criteria to "A note on self-definition of gender
Where eligibility is restricted to self-defining woman this means that anyone who self-defines as a woman is eligible to stand for these positions. Young members who do not self-define as a woman will not be eligible. You must indicate whether you self-define as a woman when you complete the online nomination form via the Youth Elections portal."

ie if you want one of the women's places you just tick the woman box.

Given that they are having trouble getting enough women-women through for some positions - in the main party - this means that any man who wants a position in Lab just needs to tick the box.

As it's an equalities thing it's not like they have to be announced "this person is in a reserved female place" so they won't get any raised eyebrows as no-one will know it was them that took a female place.

It'll be 50% men and 50% non men before we blink.

Cunty type women are probably still allowed to make the tea at the meetings and stuff.

OlennasWimple Thu 11-Jan-18 15:18:56

Come on Caroline Flint, Yvette Cooper et al! Shout loudly how this is not acceptable!

Ereshkigal Thu 11-Jan-18 15:19:35

^Well of course I read the OP and I don't understand or I wouldn't have aske^d

What about it don't you understand? It's really quite clear.

ShotsFired Thu 11-Jan-18 15:20:40

I am not a LP member, but I urge all of you who are, and who are now cancelling memberships, to please put your reasons why in a letter/email and explicitly tell them. The LP needs to know the real effect their ridiculous actions are having.

FWIW, I have been sending my own Conservative MP more info (a bunch of printed articles over Christmas) followed up with the excellent Transgendertrend 2017 roundup URL in an email. He has responded to say thank you and that he is monitoring it and continues to be against it (well, not "not keen for it to progress" is more accurate)

theyoniwayisnorthwards Thu 11-Jan-18 15:20:41

Ok I see, it's an objection to Labour saying putting transgender women in position is fulfilling their obligation to work toward gender parity?

pisacake Thu 11-Jan-18 15:21:15

theyoniwayisnorthwards you could start here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3096513-to-let-you-know-how-men-use-the-Equality-Act-to-undermine-womens-spaces?messages=100&pg=1

Basically some teenage boy has trolled the shit out of the Labour party and got them to cancel the word 'woman' so it no longer has any meaning.

This is in the context of a party that has for MANY years had places reserved for women, but now these places are no longer reserved for women, they are reserved for anyone who ticks a box.

Which is one thing, I mean if the Tories don't have all-female shortlists then you could say it's fair enough that Labour no longer have them, but it's much more offensive to do it this way whereby you claim that you are doing affirmative action but you are actually pandering to teenage boys.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth Thu 11-Jan-18 15:21:29

What don't you understand?

Previously there were 'Women's Lists'. Now there are lists for anyone who 'identifies' as a women. So men and women can apply. So what's the point of the Women's lists? But of course the LP gets to say they support and promote women's interests

And meanwhile, we have 19 year old male brats who say they are women, in Women's officer's roles.

I would lay money that the first 'woman' leader of the Labour Party will be a Trans Identified Male.

Progressive. As. Fuck.

This is what will happen

theyoniwayisnorthwards Thu 11-Jan-18 15:22:28

Thank you pisacake, thats really helpful.

53rdWay Thu 11-Jan-18 15:22:37

Can you explain to me what you are angry about please?

Labour as a socialist party should understand that women are oppressed because of our sex, not because of how we do or don’t ‘self-define’. If you redefine ‘women’ so it no longer means our sex class, and indeed no longer means anything at all, then how can you tackle women’s oppression? You can’t.

Also, Women’s Officer as a post is there to help women get into and be involved in politics, by specifically tackling the kind of problems women face in doing this. Men as the dominant class who don’t face these problems shouldn’t be taking that role, in the same way that straight people shouldn’t be applying for LGBT officer and so on.

Does this shed any light?

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 15:23:24

"I am not a LP member, but I urge all of you who are, and who are now cancelling memberships, to please put your reasons why in a letter/email and explicitly tell them. The LP needs to know the real effect their ridiculous actions are having."

I will do when they get in touch to say why isn't your DD working any more.

pisacake Thu 11-Jan-18 15:24:31

"Ok I see, it's an objection to Labour saying putting transgender women in position is fulfilling their obligation to work toward gender parity?"

Two issues, really, more important here is the unilateral declaration that gender recognition certificates are obsolete, and anyone can immediately declare themselves a woman, with all that entails (access to all female spaces). Whether transwomen count at all is another issue, but the unilateral declaration that you just need to tick a box is unacceptable.

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 15:26:09

They can probably do what they like can't they? They aren't a goods / services provider and the positions aren't jobs sort of thing...

I suspect that the equalities legislation might not apply to this type of thing in political parties but happy to be corrected.

theyoniwayisnorthwards Thu 11-Jan-18 15:27:35

Thanks 53rdWay, that's a really useful explanation. Whilst I have been thinking about and reading about intersectional feminism for some time I have not given much (or any) thought to how transgender politics interact with feminism and this is something I need to read around and think about.

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 15:28:28

Well there's enough threads on here to keep you going for about 50 years grin

IndominusRex Thu 11-Jan-18 15:32:44

Who the hell can we vote for that won't throw us under the bus?

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 15:40:36

No-one but hasn't that always been the way?

stitchglitched Thu 11-Jan-18 15:49:40

Strange how it explicitly states that you have to be under 19 for one of the roles. Why not self-defining under 19?

guardianfree Thu 11-Jan-18 15:56:39

We were talking about this the other night. I suspect that unless there is a halt to the eradication of women as a legal and scientifically accurate fact then I won't be voting - for the first time in many decades!

If no political party can appreciate the importance of this and are determined to support a 'cult' which is actively promoting medical experimentation on children resulting in their sterilisation, then there isn't a party that I would vote for (and I suspect that I am not alone).

LangCleg Thu 11-Jan-18 16:03:11

Note also that this has been made explicit only for the youth section of the LP. It's young political activists who most strongly support TRA ideology.

I've said on a couple of threads now that I think the refusal of otherwise sensible politicians to acknowledge glaringly obvious rights conflicts is because a) Labour knows it has the youth vote buttoned down and won't do anything to risk that and b) the Tories are hoping to look less unappealing to the young and supporting this doesn't impact any of their main economic areas.

mimivanne Thu 11-Jan-18 16:20:42

I feel sick.I have voted Labour for 54 years and been a member of the LP, since Jeremy became Labour Leader.
Regional Board Youth Representative ,11 posts ,6 reserved for self defining women
Young Labour National Committee ,11 posts,5 reserved for self defining women.
I called Labour Party membership 034509
22299 to cancel my membership You need to.email labourmembership@labour.org.uk to cancel .There will apparently be space to give your reasons.Distress level 100%.

GrimDamnFanjo Thu 11-Jan-18 16:26:22

I felt the rage when I saw my daughter students union reserves spaces at conferences for self defining women. It's a fucking disgrace.

ButFirstTea Thu 11-Jan-18 16:34:02

I don't see the problem. If you are a woman you are eligible and covered by this definition.

Lottapianos Thu 11-Jan-18 16:36:49

Another Labour voter saying fuck this shit. I'm so utterly sick of it. PLEASE let some actual women MPs with their heads screwed on start kicking up about this. It's all happening so quickly and it's bloody terrifying

Seeingadistance Thu 11-Jan-18 16:47:11

@ButFirstTea The problem is that men are also eligible for positions which are intended for women!

Men are not women.

Thehairthebod Thu 11-Jan-18 16:49:04

I don't see the problem. If you are a woman you are eligible and covered by this definition.

Because you are competing against 'self defining women' (ie. Men) so what is the point of having 'women's lists'? It's just a way of looking inclusive on the outside.

Plus, as our friend Lily shows, you can be pretty crap at your role and have the charisma of a park bench, but if you are trans you will still get told that you are amazing and that you are 'smashing it'.

What a load of bollocks.

Fekko Thu 11-Jan-18 16:52:01

So if you say you are a woman, hey

IrkThePurist Thu 11-Jan-18 16:57:07

ButFirstTea
The problem is;
1) This is a breach of The Equality Act. and
2) Labour can now have 100% biologically male MPs and reps, and still claim to be supporting women.

For example, the post of Womens Officer is supposed to be held by a woman. 'Woman' is a protected characteristic meaning 'biological woman' not transgender.

PaleBlueMoonlight Thu 11-Jan-18 16:59:22

I am also not a self-defining woman, I am just a woman.

gunsandbanjos Thu 11-Jan-18 17:00:29

What an unbelievable pile of shit!

I’m actually speechless.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest Thu 11-Jan-18 17:02:08

Wouldn't it be nice if self defining as a man gave you all the perks? Shame it only seems to work in one direction...

ButFirstTea Thu 11-Jan-18 17:04:40

I mean not all 'biologically' female women MPs support women's issues and lots of socialist male MPs do, ie any who are opposed to austerity etc.

It's quite offensive to say that trans women are men don't you think? I sort of understand the worry that a man who is not trans might use this as a platform although I think the risk of that is small. But trans women are a real thing and they deserve representation as well. I think calling them 'men' cheapens the argument. Trans rights and women's rights are not incompatible (in fact they overlap in that trans women's rights are the same as women's rights...).

LangCleg Thu 11-Jan-18 17:09:30

But trans women are a real thing and they deserve representation as well.

Yes. In the LGBTQ lists, as they already can.

And anyway, on that basis, what about trans men? Don't they deserve representation? Are men being asked to reserve places for trans men? No, of course not.

Women need representation. WOMEN.

53rdWay Thu 11-Jan-18 17:10:43

But trans women are a real thing and they deserve representation as well.

Yes they are real, yes they deserve representation. But if Labour said “okay we’re reserving these other positions for trans people only”, do you think trans people should put up with it if Labour add “and by ‘trans’ all we mean is that you tick this box saying so, we don’t care if you’re trans or not really, we’re fine with non-trans people taking that place”?

Redonionricedpotato Thu 11-Jan-18 17:10:58

Sorry ButFirst but beyond the obvious overlap of trans and women’s rights to safety and dignity then trans women’s needs and rights are totally different to mine as a woman. Our rights stem from our biology - safe abortion, menstruation, childbirth, breastfeeding, all things that do not concern transwomen.

And it doesn’t cheapen the argument to say they are men. It’s simoly stating a fact of biology, a morally neutral truth. They are men.

OlennasWimple Thu 11-Jan-18 17:11:14

But trans women are a real thing and they deserve representation as well

Agreed. I don't like the T being tacked onto LGBT, but there it is and the LGBT officer supposed to represent lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans people.

Transwomen are not women is a simple statement of fact. Transwomen are not representative of women, and should not try to be.

AskBasil Thu 11-Jan-18 17:11:51

Fuck them.

That is all.

I won't be voting for them until they stop pretending men are women if they say they are.

Seeingadistance Thu 11-Jan-18 17:14:13

I use the word "woman" to mean adult female human, and "man" to mean adult human male. I can't fucking believe that I keep having to point out this biological reality!

It is not possible to change sex. A man cannot become a woman. A woman cannot become a man.

A trans woman is a man. A trans woman might be a man in a dress, high heels, wearing making up and having long hair. They are still a man. I am a woman in jeans, Docs, no make-up and short hair. I am still a woman.

A trans woman might have had surgery to remove his penis and/or testicles (although that is unlikely as only a very number do that. It's so much easier to tick a box on a LP form, so need to bother with surgery, eh?!). He is still a man. He is still a man in the same way that a man who has lost his penis and/or testicles through illness or accident is still a man. He is still a man in the same way that a woman who has had a mastectomy or a hysterectomy is still a woman.

A trans woman is a man.

ATeardropExplodes Thu 11-Jan-18 17:15:02

Direct debit deleted. Fuck the lot of them.

MephistophelesApprentice Thu 11-Jan-18 17:17:47

Do you think this language is a deliberate choice to appeal to young voters, or a result of the high level of youth participation in the party?

Seeingadistance Thu 11-Jan-18 17:18:55

I sort of understand the worry that a man who is not trans might use this as a platform although I think the risk of that is small.

But it's not their platform. Men shouldn't be on the platform at all. It is intended specifically for women, who have been historically excluded in myriad ways, both directly and indirectly. And now we're not just being excluded, we're being made ... nothing.

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 17:19:27

Trans womens rights are not the same as women's rights.

Most things that we fight for are related to our biology, how we are treated due to our biology.

Can you explain how you see what trans women need for equality / parity and what women need for equality / parity are the same please.

There is also the small point that loads of cunty-people don't "self define" as women, many are GNC, don't buy into ID politics / genderist ideas etc etc

So where is the representation for those?

Why can't it be places for cunty-women and then places reserved for non-cunty-women and the GNC and trans people and men can all fight over those spaces.

pisacake Thu 11-Jan-18 17:19:47

"It's quite offensive to say that trans women are men don't you think?"

Er, not really? I mean if a bloke wants to have a boob job and what not, then there's nothing wrong with that, it's up to him. But he's still a bloke.

"I sort of understand the worry that a man who is not trans might use this as a platform although I think the risk of that is small. "

It's already happened, see Lily Madigan.

"But trans women are a real thing and they deserve representation as well. "

Well yes, we already have lots of gay male MPs, I don't see trans being a big step from there.

"I think calling them 'men' cheapens the argument. "

It's fact though.

"Trans rights and women's rights are not incompatible (in fact they overlap in that trans women's rights are the same as women's rights...)."

No, transwomen's rights have literally zilch, nothing, nada, rien to do with women's rights.

This is a transwoman:

www.theguardian.com/profile/jane-fae

He is a 'feminist' at the Guardian. He writes exclusively about trans rights. Not about menstruation (how would he?) or abortion rights. But about the right of men to go into women's toilets and so on.

He writes about how we should be able to possess cartoon child abuse images.

www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/28/government_outlaws_pictures/

He wrote a book on child pornography

www.scl.org/articles/3399-book-review-jane-fae-s-taming-the-beast

His rights are men's rights.

This is another transwoman

twitter.com/ZJemptv

He posts pornography of himself on the internet. He is in with all the other transwomen online (look him up on kiwi farms - warning disturbing content)

He posted his glee when a female porn star killed herself after she was told to kill herself for saying that she wouldn't have sex with men with men online.

His rights - telling women to kill themselves, videos of himself masturbating, are men's rights.

Transwomen's rights have NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with women's rights.

Transwomen should have rights, but their rights should not be conflated at all with women. It is like saying that gay men's rights are women's rights. They are not. Gay men want things like being able to have sex in public places without being arrested/entrapped by the police. That's got nothing to do with women, and nor have transwomen.

pisacake Thu 11-Jan-18 17:20:55

sex with men who have sex with men that should say.

Lottapianos Thu 11-Jan-18 17:21:04

'But trans women are a real thing and they deserve representation as well.'

Ok fine. But not by piggy backing on to the hard won representation of actual women. Transwomen and actual women are two different things. Being a woman is not about how you feel, it is a biological reality. It's not a costume that you can put on and take off at will. There is no such thing as a female brain. You cannot be 'a woman trapped in a man's body'. And its highly offensive to actual women to suggest otherwise

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 17:21:40

I am utterly lol @ this still "(in fact they overlap in that trans women's rights are the same as women's rights...)."

Abortion rights
Contraception
Medical mistreatment of female specific conditions (mesh, endo etc)
Pregnancy and birth care, maternal mortality around the world, fistula
and on and on and on

Elendon Thu 11-Jan-18 17:22:55

Well that's my son out of the elections for the under 19s in the North West.

He's doing Gov and Politics for A Level, is extremely interested in his subject and whilst he is critical of some aspects of the Labour Party, he does feel it's his natural home.

However on reflection, he says he might go Lib Dem now.

DeleteOrDecay Thu 11-Jan-18 17:25:44

Yeah fuck that🖕

Voting labour in my area is a wasted vote anyway.

pisacake Thu 11-Jan-18 17:32:34

or perhaps someone could explain which aspect of transwomen's rights overlaps with women's rights? I mean for example more women in STEM, this starts from school where boys are socialised towards science and girls towards arts. I mean the fuckwits at my DD's school have literally scheduled the art scholarship group at the same time as the science club, so my DD is the only girl doing science (even though she is good at art) and the other girls are working towards art scholarships/.

But transwomen were nearly all boys at school, so benefited from that. So if you promote transwomen as women, then you are encouraging MORE males and discouraging females, because some of the STEM transwomen are really quite disgusting specimens. I mean if you have a stereotypical male nerd on one hand and then a sterotypical male nerd in drag on the other, it's not going to help anyone is it?

So trans rights are in direct opposition to women's rights.

LapdanceShoeshine Thu 11-Jan-18 17:35:24

My sub is paid annually in June so stopping my DD isn't dramatic enough atm dammit.

Have emailed asking how to resign though (& also asking, in passing, why no roles dedicated to the "self-defining men") as - surprisingly - there is no information on the membership page hmm

Fekko Thu 11-Jan-18 17:36:41

As long as you make it perfectly clear why you feel you can no longer be a member then the jobs done.

ButFirstTea Thu 11-Jan-18 17:38:48

Your points only count if you continue think of trans women and men and trans men as women. There should be more trans women in STEM or politics or whatever field, they're currently underrepresented as women are.

I'm really not trying to start a fight. It's upsetting for me to hear people talk about friends of mine like this. I know trans men and women and they've had to fight against devastating prejudice, some of them losing friends and family because of their desire to live as their true selves. I just think it's sad that we can't unite against common and proven enemies of women and progress and instead we turn on each other.

ISaySteadyOn Thu 11-Jan-18 17:40:56

Wasn't there a thread on here suggesting a Woman's Liberation Party? Should we all try to do something along those lines? It is really disheartening to feel there is no one to vote for.

Glitterypinksoap Thu 11-Jan-18 17:41:11

What needs to happen then is women resign en mass, refuse to stand for any women's positions, and let the Labour party present themselves as men in suits and more men currently self identified as women. And nary an xx chromosome in sight.

At that point it's going to be hard for the general public to miss the Emperor running around starkers.

BelligerentGardenPixies Thu 11-Jan-18 17:41:25

I will be spoiling my vote with the female symbol for the foreseeable future. If one of the political parties steps up and fights for the rights of the other half the population I’ll vote again —tbh, probably never the tories— but as it stands there is nobody who deserves my affiliation.

Glitterypinksoap Thu 11-Jan-18 17:44:36

Your points only count if you continue think of trans women and men and trans men as women. There should be more trans women in STEM or politics or whatever field, they're currently underrepresented as women are.

Tran women are men. Trans men are women. There absolutely need to be trans women (interesting you don't feel trans men are necessary) in politics and whatever field, but this needs to come by campaigning for trans places, not by snatching badly needed seats from an already woefully under represented minority. There is no way to make that sound ethical. This is why the issue is trans women and you show it in your own post. No one cares about how many trans men take seats away from men, men are already massively over represented in every field.

Chchchchangeabout Thu 11-Jan-18 17:45:22

This is dire. Is resigning membership the best thing to do though? Members have power to vote for the party leader. If all the sane people leave then where is the possibility for change? I would stay, register disquiet, and vote for someone who represented my views next time there was a chance.

DjunaBarnes Thu 11-Jan-18 17:46:56

De-lurking to say that I'm another soon to be ex Labour party member over this. I'll be writing to my local party to explain why seeing as there's no way of giving that feedback to the central party machine.

IrkThePurist Thu 11-Jan-18 17:47:16

I was thinking of spoiling my ballot paper. I'm trying to come up with a short and pithy slogan but I'm worried about doing a Rimmer grin

I might just scrawl SPARTACUS and use the womens symbol now.

Bobobobo2018 Thu 11-Jan-18 17:48:56

Labour can go fuck themselves

DeleteOrDecay Thu 11-Jan-18 17:51:01

I know trans men and women and they've had to fight against devastating prejudice, some of them losing friends and family because of their desire to live as their true selves.

That's a shame and I'm sorry to hear that but in the nicest possible way that is not a reason for women to give up their own hard fought for rights to make room.

Transmen and women need to fight for their own rights, not ride on the coat tails of women's rights.

They are not real men or women and never will be. Blame biology for that.

GrimDamnFanjo Thu 11-Jan-18 17:59:22

I became political as a young person and then a student. Quota systems were needed (and still are) to ensure female voices are heard in politics. Denying young women the opportunity to hold office in favour of young men who have decided for whatever reason they want to define as women is just not fair. By all means have reserved spaces for transpeople, but don't silence young women like this.

stitchglitched Thu 11-Jan-18 17:59:54

ButFirstTea how are you defining a transwoman please?

gunsandbanjos Thu 11-Jan-18 18:00:16

I’ve tweeted labour, I’m so angry.

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 18:04:01

It ignores the fact that women and girls have also had to fight tooth and nail to get to where we are, and we make up 50% of the population!

There are many many women who have had to deal with devastating prejudice, and still do, the world over.

People who say oh but look they're having a bad time are entirely and wilfully blind to what is being done to women all over the world every day.

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 18:05:21

I don't know how twitter works sad

gunsandbanjos Thu 11-Jan-18 18:08:27

You set up an account and by using the @ symbol you can direct what you write at someone specific.

You can also use # to link things together. If enough people use the same search or # it trends.

So if we all tweeted #labourarearseholes then you could find all our tweets by searching the # and if enough tweeted it it would trend.

Tartyflette Thu 11-Jan-18 18:08:51

As the Morning Star does not seem to have any truck with this gender self-ID nonsense, would it be worth voting for a Communist candidate of some kind in general or local elections? (if there is one standing in your constituency)
I have always voted Labour but I too would not be able to bring myself to vote for them in future, unless things change radically. I don't think the Lib-Dems are any better on this issue, nor the Greens. And we all know about the WEP.

gunsandbanjos Thu 11-Jan-18 18:11:15

Wow, not related to this specific issue but labour are ON FIRE lately...

ButFirstTea Thu 11-Jan-18 18:12:17

@stitchglitched

Women 'assigned male at birth' but who now live as women, present as women in their day to day life etc. How do you define them, is it different? Not meaning that to sound snarky just wondering if there is a genuine disagreement over what trans means.

Ereshkigal Thu 11-Jan-18 18:12:28

Do you think this language is a deliberate choice to appeal to young voters, or a result of the high level of youth participation in the party?

Good question. I suspect a bit of both, and the comms team consulted their youth membership around terminology etc.

Fekko Thu 11-Jan-18 18:15:19

‘assigned male at birth' - I don’t get it, it’s not like there’s a random selection in the labour ward is it? Or does it just go girl boy girl boy girl boy?

UpABitLate Thu 11-Jan-18 18:15:51

ButTeaFirst

Self defining as a woman does not involve dressing any particular way (how do women dress anyway?), behaving a certain way (how do women behave anyway?) etc

In this case it simply means ticking a box, and if they ask, say, I self identify as a woman. There is no requirement to take any other action.

Out of interest, how does one "present" as a woman?

Ereshkigal Thu 11-Jan-18 18:16:13

Women 'assigned male at birth' but who now live as women, present as women in their day to day life etc. How do you define them, is it different? Not meaning that to sound snarky just wondering if there is a genuine disagreement over what trans means.

Well maybe. What do you think trans means? Do you think some women got trapped in men's bodies? They are male. "Assigned male at birth" is a loaded term appropriated from the intersex community. MTF trans people have not been socialised as women. Nor do most of them "pass" as women in day to day life. So they are not read as women,

DeleteOrDecay Thu 11-Jan-18 18:17:40

'Assigned Male at birth'hmm

You don't get assigned anything at birth, it's biological fact not a lucky dip. A doctor or midwife looks at your genitals when you are born and if you have a penis you are Male and if you have a vagina you are female. Occasionally some people are born with a condition which makes them intersex but these people are rare.

What does 'presenting and living as a woman' mean?

ATeardropExplodes Thu 11-Jan-18 18:19:48

There should be more trans women in STEM or politics or whatever field, they're currently underrepresented as women are.

Why?

MorrisZapp Thu 11-Jan-18 18:20:49

Well this is shit. Here in Scotland we always have the lovely liberal SNP to turn to but they're even worse. They want boys to be allowed to sleep in with girls on school trips and parents won't be told about it.

Fuck the fucking lot of them.

Fekko Thu 11-Jan-18 18:21:15

So are they women or not? A different category then? This is getting very confusing these days.

Maireadplastic Thu 11-Jan-18 18:22:44

So you leave the LP or stop voting for the LP- then what? What's the alternative? Why do you think the Tories keep getting back in?

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