Anyone REALLY knoweldgable about feminism that cares to discuss it's role wrt ASD?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Okay. I'm not intending to upset anyone, and yes, I'm probably quite insane wrt this but I wanted some views on this theory.

Some of you know that I believe that stressed-out mothers, and inhumane labours 'triggers' autism in babies with a genetic predisposition. This is because of the hormone Oxytocin that is essential for bonding, love, social interaction etc. is lower in stressed mothers, and supressed by adrenaline during pregnancy and childbirth.

This has not been researched. It probably won't be. Who would fund it?

Okay, with me so far?

Now, I have read some alluded to statistics (not found the source yet) that suggests in Afro-American families there is a prevelance of just a sixth of the number of caucasions diagnosed with autism. In American Indians, it is half. These two societies are matriarchal.

I'll carry on only if I get a few bites............or anyone's interest!

[squidworth]

The problem with these types of statistics is that it also depends on how cultures/countries diagnose. I honestly believe 20 years ago neither of my boys would of been dx ASD, my eldest would be classed as a strange geek and my youngest would of been diagnosed as being brain damaged. Both of my boys regressed.

[cwtch4967]

I'd like to hear where you are going with this..............

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Oh absolutely squid. I'm just discussing a theory for the moment, but thanks for responding to the post. Although the Afro-Americans are in American, but possibly as a whole have less access to diagnosis, and 'might' be more likely to be given labels of bad behaviour of course.

But my theory isn't really underpinned by these stats, at least they alone could not prove anything. If it was that easy it would have been done.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Thank you cwtwch.

I'm just exploring it for the moment but would love to have a discussion, so I'll post again shortly.

[SweetGrapes]

Afro-american and American Indian are matriarchal? Really?
In dd's class there are always more boys than girls and more black boys than anyone else. (She is usually the only girl in her class.)

Does this mean anything? I have no idea...

Feel a bit sad that there aren't any more girls though. And makes me wonder how it'll be for her once they are all in secondary school.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Now, it would seem that feminism is a bit mixed up at the moment.

Historically, in almost every culture, women have been the childcarers, and nurturers. They have also been quite powerful in the role of provider, with their children tagging alongside them until industrialisation took hold and massproducing.

[lisad123]

I think you would struggle to find the right numbers especially from some certain backgrounds.
Some cultures would leave their child somewhere if they were found to have a disability, some blame the mum so its never recorded and some refuse to believe in disabilities at all :( > just look at the family in china thread!

I certainly would be intrested in stess mother = asd. Both my preganncys were horrible and the births even worse :(

[willowthecat]

I think the problem with looking at autism dx rates in Africa is that it's unlikely their societies are diagnosing autism in the way done in North America and Europe and also is difficult in itself due to autism not being a true diagnosis ( something you see at the end of a microscope) but a subjective assessment of a set of behaviours. I saw an interesting article on bbc web site last week about a boy in Ethiopia with 'autism' and it was generally thought of as a form of possession by demons - and when you look at some of the crazy ideas Europe/USA has come up with about 'autism', who are we to judge ?

[lacornsillk]

Interesting idea...anyone know what are the statistics for different ethnic groups within this country?

[lacornsillk]

...also there is a poster on here

[SweetGrapes]

In India the doctors admit to not diagnosing autism in the past because there was nothing the parents can do about it. So, even if they suspect it, they don't really say anything. (More in smaller towns where there really are no facilities for things like this and maybe parents are not educated/internet savvy so not really able to research things for themselves.)
The same thing may be going on elsewhere also.
(Must say though, each time I go back I find awareness has jumped up loads.)

[SweetGrapes]

"Now, it would seem that feminism is a bit mixed up at the moment.

Historically, in almost every culture, women have been the childcarers, and nurturers. They have also been quite powerful in the role of provider, with their children tagging alongside them until industrialisation took hold and massproducing."

Do you mean that when mums are the primary caregivers, it's a matriachal society? Where I come from, it's very traditional, my mother-in-law lives like people have lived for centuries - definetely the care giver and nurturer in the family, men are not involved in childbirth (my bil was not allowed to visit his wife and daughter for 2 months after the birth) - and I have not seen a more staunch defender/supported/implementer of the patriachy.
Woe-betide me if I step out of line...

(So, I escape to the UK with dh and dc's and go 'nar nar' at her from a few 1000 miles away... )

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Okay, leave the cultures aside for a bit. That's not especially where I was going.

Since women and the nuturing/childcare role has been seperated from production, women's roles in society became devalued, and subsequently the role of childcarer and nuturer became devalued.

As women became less valued, they became walking wombs, cooks and caretakers of men and their men's ability to produce and earn money.

Women did eventually fight back but mostly to compete with men in a men's world, as men, NOT to win the right to be valued as carers, childrearers and nurtures, and certainly NOT to create a society where children were a proper part of it, including production.

[SweetGrapes]

However, stressed mum == asd kid could still be possible.
Just not sure of the feminism/afro-american/native american angle.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

sorry sweetgrapes x post. No, not especially.

[SweetGrapes]

Sorry, X post

[SweetGrapes]

I better shut up now

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Oh what? No, please don't shut up Sweetgrapes.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Anyway, women won the right to do anything (okay, we're still fighting that one but largely things have improved), but in doing so we have created a world economy where households are based on two incomes, largely.

What we have won essentially, for most of us, is the need to do EVERYTHING, whilst still being subjected to large inequalities in policy, finance and demands on our time.

We also now live in an extremely competitive world, where (particularly in this country) personal achievement and wealth is considered more important than socieity's and that society is the culmination of competivite, achieving individuals.

okay - so it got a bit political too

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Competition and the stress of it produces adrenaline and impedes Oxytocin, which isn't needed anyway much because sucess is based on drive, not so much empathy.

To pile on even more stress, services for women during pregnancy and childbirth are shite, because they are for women, but more importantly for the aspect of women that is not valued.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Now humans develop organically, and there is quite a lot of research that shows that babies develop in the womb in a way that would give them the best chance of surviving the environment that they will be born into, and continue to do so in their early years.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Have I lost everyone......?

[SweetGrapes]

Still here... Just trying to do everything at once.

[silverfrog]

hmmm, I don't know.

I mean, I can (kind of) follow your thinking. but (and it's a big but):

ostensibly when pregnant with dd1, I was not stressed. well, apart from the standard freaking out what-have-I-done-ness of it, and the hyperemesis, etc. there was, however a really interesting study that someone linked to ages ago which was sort of along these lines - to do with (for want of a better phrase) emotional stress amongst immigrant mothers (no family support, not understanding new culture etc) and the likelihood of this being a factor in ASD. I found it interesting because I was that person, in a way - we were abroad when I was having dd, living in a very different culture, with no family at all (either of us) and I was totally unsupported. and then very ill, with all the stress that brings, hospitalised a couple of times - essentially marooned in hospital as dh was off on business trips a lot etc.

so, maybe it was all a contributing factor?

BUT, then, tbh, the stress I was under when pregnant with dd2 was much, much greater. I had a child with severe ASD, which all the professionals around me were doing their best to deny (dd1 was dx'd at just over 2.6 - weeks after dd2 was born, so all through that pregnancy I was being pushed from pillar to post, ignored, veiled threats re: PND (and implictions of Munchausen's) etc). that, along with the day to day stress of hyperemesis (again!), actually trying to relate to dd1 (at this point she literally would sit in the corner of a room and scratch the wall until her fingers bled. and screech and howl if I moved her away. no interest in anyone or anything else. at all. aside from food.), research what to do since no one else was helping etc. plus a load of incidental stuff - dh's job went tits up and we were broke, we were rebuilding the house - literally every room in the house was a building site apart from dd1's bedroom. and dh had 2 major life threatening operations, back to back.

I think on balance, dd2's pregnancy wins out on stress - and she is the less ASD one (I say less, she has no dx, and none likely. but she is not completely NT, just comparatively so when you factor in dd1)

anecdotal, sure. but you have to start somewhere.

do you think your stress was greater with your ds' preganacy than with your dd's? (sorry, personal question. but I wondered where your initial belief comes from, if not from personal experience.)