Just pretend for this thread that we're talking about a group of five adults here

[MrsWobbleTheWaitress]

not, four children and one adult, because we believe very strongly in UP/consensual living/taking children seriously/whatever you want to call it.

I need help with DD1! Flipping child! She's 6.5. She swings from being totally stubborn, and refusing to engage in problem solving (usually wrt planning what to do that day) to make us all happy, to being over-amenable and self-sacrificing to make me happy - 'whatever you want mummy'.

I am feeling angry and miserable about it.

Today's situation:

I have made her do a few things lately that she hasn't wanted to do, which I think is what is triggering this behaviour. I tell her she is in control of her life, but then take that control away when I lose my temper at the frustration of trying to find a common preference for the whole family.

So we've been invited to a very good friend's house this afternoon, somewhere I've ended up making DD1 come along with us to for the last three or four visits as everyone else has wanted to go. She's moped around for the first couple of hours and then got engaged in some huge big game with them all and hasn't wanted to leave at the end. However, with it in mind that I think she is reacting to not actually being in control of the decisions we make, I have decided to stick to my TCS guns and not force her to go this time.

The problem is that she doesn't know what she wants to do instead. She says she wants to go out. I know I need to connect with other adults IRL each day as far as possible, to keep black dog at bay.

I've suggested joining a group of other families who are meeting today to do junk modelling together. Everyone else says 'yes', she says 'no'. I've suggested a walk along the docks. Everyone else says 'yes', she says 'no'.

Please, please help! I am crying, now. I just don't know what to do to meet her needs. I know she has unmet needs, as they always do have when we have a period of unpleasant behaviour. She's not being selfish intentionally. I believe very strongly in consensual living, but I have not been enacting it the way I've been talking about it, so, in effect, I've been lying to her and she probably doesn't trust me one inch - what's the point in engaging in problem solving when you always overrule me anyway, Mummy?

So help!

1. immediate issue - what do we do today?
   
   
2. long term issue - how on earth do we find things to do that we are all happy about (myself included) without this battle every day?
   
   I think most of them would be happy to spend a few days at home, just playing together/doing things with me/doing activities but I need time with other adults for my own sanity, which is important for the children, obviously.
   
   All practical, and deep and meaningful discussion type suggestions very welcome indeed

[coldtits]

You can't pretend she's an adult just because you don't want to be.

[4andnotout]

At 6 is she really able to make adult decisions, she is a child and needs to be treated as such, I'm all for letting them have a say but the adult should be in charge and have the final say on what is happening.

[MrsWobbleTheWaitress]

Ok, why did I bother?

I'm not pretending she's an adult. I just don't think it's helpful to coerce her. It works in our family, until I lose sight of what we believe in, which is what I've done.

I'm asking for help from people who know what I'm talking about, not unhelpful posts from people telling me to take charge

[coldtits]

you are not respecting her needs as a six year old. It's all very well you strongly believe in consensual living - she's quite clearly showing you that the arrangemenyt is making her insecure and unhappy. She needs to know that you are bigger than her, stronger than her, cleverer than her and therefore able to guide her and show her how to grow up.

As it is, you're forcing her to make adult decisions before she has had the life experience to make them. It's little wonder she's backing away from this, she's trying to make you guide her!

[PrettyCandles]

Her behaviour is completely normal for a young child. Despite your firm belief in and active participation in consensual living, you have also to accept that children have a different world-view to adults. The big world can be a scarey place to them. Everything changes so fast, can be so noisy, there are so many dangers, the one constant in their lives are the loving adults who look after them.

Children need structure in their lives. They are not fools, they know that they are not in control of what is going on in their lives. They know that, family conferences notwithstanding, the ultimate results rest in their parents' hands.

If the parents don't protect the child, then the child gets upset. By protect I don't mean exerting total control, but creating safe and secure boundaries. Every child will try to break those boundaries from time to time, and seeing that they don't break, that they bounce the child straight back into the safety of their loving adult, gives the child a great sense of comfort and security.

So IMO you need to set boundaries. Of course love her and accept her behaviour unconditionally, respect and take into account her opinions and feelings, but also let her know that you are in control, she is safe with you.

[coldtits]

I do know what I'm talking about, I just do not agree with coercing an infant into running her own life entirely simply because you want to be her friend because it's easier than being her parent.

[MrsWobbleTheWaitress]

Oh fucking hell!

[PrettyCandles]

Perhaps also she doesn't want 'consensual', perhaps she wants 'selfish'. Perhaps she wants a bit of me me me time, a bit of not sharing Mummy or Daddy with others. That's also OK.

Watch children playing - they're not democrats, they're authoritarians.

[belgo]

You would do very well to listen to the advice on this thread.

It takes an adult to ask for help and to take it.

[Tortington]

im sure there is a middle ground, where you say - we are doing x - but within that activity she gets to make decisions.

must say that i haven't heard of this type of parenting before.

i do believe in disussions with children, i do believe for instance with teenagers if they do something wrong and you ask them what punishment they think is appropriate, they will almost always be harsher than i was going to be. stuff like that.

but there is other stuff where you have to be the number one big guy, and i don't think you should beat yourself up about it

[Vivia]

OP damn well stop making faces at posters on this thread. Stop kidding yourself that in your case 'UP/consensual living/taking children seriously/whatever you want to call it' is about respecting a child's agency and autonomy. You are using it as an excuse to avoid parenting.

[sparkle09]

in my experience, children who are brought up with limited boundries grow into adults that struggle with adult world boundries,

i feel its really important to teach children that boundries are there for a reason and it prepares them to be able to deal with the adult world that also has boundries we all have to live by.

rules are not just for children and the better prepared children are for this, the more stable adult they will become. iykwim?

[itsmeitsmeolord]

What ages are your children? Why do you all have to do the same activity together?

Why do you need to do set activities at all?
Weekends are for chilling out, having fun and doing any odds and sods.
Not organised activity ad infinitum.

Sorry, that sounds hypercritical I think, I don't meAN it to be, I just think you are putting your need for adult company above the need to let the kids relax.

Perhaps if there was less going on, she would find it easier to take part in decision making.

[MathsMadMummy]

MrsW

If she can't decide what to do instead, then you should go with what the others want to do. i.e. if she doesn't have a better idea then she shouldn't complain.

I don't think that compromises TCS - I'd say the exact same thing to an adult in this situation! Adults have to compromise too. DH and I have had to do this a few times when we don't both want to do the same thing.

Sorry you're feeling rubbish ((hug))

[Adair]

Hello, a supportive post here.

I think the important thing is to look at the principles behind things. I firmly agree with what others call 'boundaries', I guess you could call them 'familiar routine' or 'comfort points' or whatever you want. Things that she knows will always stay the same. So putting certain things in the day - breakfast etc. Planning the day is too open-ended for a small child. It's nothing to do with being authoritative but taking the right care of her, and ensuring she IS in control. She will not feel in control if she doesn;t know where to begin (as adult I can feel like this too)

Let's face it, as adults, sometimes we want other people to make the decisions for us too. There is nothing wrong in saying 'we are going to x today because we haven't seen her for a while' (I sometimes don't particularly want to see Dh's friends but it is polite to do so). She can decide what to wear/listen to in the car/hell, let her choose whether you take the train or the car.

I wholeheartedly agree with not forcing and 'because i said so' style of parenting (not that I don't fail sometimes, am only human). But I think part of that is that we each have roles - so dd has to learn how to be a good big sister to her brother, and she is. I have to be Mummy (even when I don't want to be) and that means sometimes I have to do things I don't want to.

Does that make sense?

[MmeLindt]

MrsWobble
I guess that if you had wanted people to give you advice about how to deal with this in a way that suits your parenting style, you should have posted on a forum which is dedicated to that style.

Here on MN is probably the wrong place to ask this question as most of us have a similar approach to parenting.

IMO, you are confusing your DD and giving her too much responsibility.

And you are being unfair to the other members of your family.

You won't want to hear that though.

I would suggest you decide on areas of your DD's life where she has control - what she wants to eat/wear/play with. And you retain control of the basics - where to go/safety measures etc.

I am sure that there are some areas of your life that your DC are not allowed to decide themselves what they do, eg. schooling. Just extend that a little.

[Alibabaandthe40nappies]

Doesn't the will of the majority rule in a democracy, which is what it sounds like you are aspiring to?

So why should your other children miss out on something because of your 6yo?

Her saying no to everything suggests to me that she's pushing you for a boundary, she is hoping you are going to make the choice for her. Too many choices are scary for anyone, especially children.

You have said you need adult contact, and you believe it will be better for the children if you get it. So yours is the overriding need IMO. Are you in disguise btw? Don't want to 'out' you if you are.

[Fimblehobbs]

Rather than having to agree each day could you all agree some sort of weekly pattern where on Mondays DC1 chooses where to go, on Tuesdays you go to XYZ, on Wednesdays DC2 chooses. So you are doing this exercise every six weeks or whatever rather than daily.

And you have an agreement that if someone can't decide, or something else crops up, you all vote on it.

No one is in control of their whole life. We all have to accomodate each other. She could learn that you all SHARE control over family life. She is part of a community as well as an individual.

I don't totally understand/agree with your parenting style but I can sympathise and I do hope this is helpful.

[onebadbaby]

Are you homeschooling the children???

[ahundredtimes]

I think a 6 y-old living with whatever sort and kind of parenting might v well decide to go completely against the flow, just for the hell of it, and just because they're exercising some independence of spirit.

It's not a result of your parenting necessarily, but what is clear is that YOU now need to be flexible in YOUR approach to your philosophy to accommodate the behaviour. It seems normal to me, but v v tiring, I agree.

I have three not four, someone always complains, someone always would rather do x than y. Oh look we've reached agreement, okay, I'll swim the other way for a bit, just because. Not because they've got a better idea, oh no.

There IS a case for, 'well, look, sometimes you can't do what you want, so you have to lump it I'm afraid. Just as x and y will have to lump it another time. Buck up, you'll survive, stop screaming, another time it'll go your way, just not today. That's how it goes. Welcome to family life.'

They tend to understand that, ime.