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Should those who seek to take lives forfeit their 'Human Rights?'

(122 Posts)
bubble99 Sat 30-Jul-05 22:30:39

IMO the (alleged) failed suicide bombers should be treated in accordance with the terms set out by the Human Rights Commission (INHCR? UNIHCR?)until such time as they are found guilty or otherwise of their planned atrocities.

I don't want to enter into into an Iraq convo here. For the record though, I am disgusted that when Bush and Blair, killed and maimed innocent Iraqi civilians it was called 'Shock and Awe' or 'Liberation.' It's now happened here and if it transpired that one of the (alleged) failed suicide bombers had had his whole family wiped out in Iraq by an allied bomb (though from what I can tell none of them were Iraqis) I would be halfway to understanding his actions.

Anyway, I digress. If these men are found guilty of attempting to carry out mass murder, and thus denying other people of their right to live, I believe they should forfeit their rights to appeal under Human Rights Legislation. What do you think?

QueenOfQuotes Sat 30-Jul-05 22:34:36

I don't think so - where do you draw the line, what about serial killers? Murderers who've "only" murdered once, but would probably have done it again had they not been caught.

As much as it 'stinks' I think if we want to show them how to live democratically in a "Western Society" I believe (as annoying as it is) they should be given the same rights as any other criminal.

MrsGordonRamsay Sat 30-Jul-05 22:35:20

I agree.

I was so angry when I read the transcript, in which one of the alleged bombers, allegedly said that he had rights.

I shouted at the paper what about innocent peoples rights to go about their daily businees without fear of being murdered or maimed.

Caligula Sat 30-Jul-05 22:44:22

No of course they shouldn't, otherwise human rights mean nothing.

In fact, human rights do mean nothing. We only observe them when we want to. The Western world only cared about them, when the Soviet block looked like an alternative to Western capitalism. Now that there's no alternative, we're giving them up, bit by bit. Last year, there was an article in Newsweek about whether there is ever any justification in using torture. 30 years ago, when the Soviet Union looked powerful and scary and was a handy example of a bad record on human rights, such an article in such an icon of American journalism would have been unthinkable.

But for those of us who always believed in human rights, not just as a stick to beat the nasty Russians with, they're non-negotiable. Once you start whittling one bit away, the whole thing collapses and you're left with citizens being subservient to states, rather than the state being an instrument of the citizen's will. I know what I'd prefer.

Janh Sat 30-Jul-05 22:46:48

It did make me cross to find out that asylum seekers from Somalia had come here, benefited from our welfare system and then decided to blow a few of us up.

Where do you draw the line? When is it OK to say OK, fuck you, if you hate us that much just don't come here in the first place?

QueenOfQuotes Sat 30-Jul-05 22:49:24

ermm Jan - the one from Somalia came over when he was 12yrs old and granted leave to remain 5yrs ago - he may have got a lot of housing benifit - but we don't know much about him - and it wasn't HIM that applied for aslyum....

Janh Sat 30-Jul-05 22:52:43

You can argue this either way until you are proverbially blue in the face, QOQ, but this is a person who had no legal entitlement to citizenship but whose parents (?) took a moral one. Once he reached 18 he should have moved to a an Islam state if he disliked the Western way so much.

sallystrawberry Sat 30-Jul-05 22:53:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Janh Sat 30-Jul-05 22:54:46

And in fact 2 of the 4 are Somali AFAIK? (Have no other knowledge so far)

Caligula Sat 30-Jul-05 22:57:12

No I don't think it is Jan. But I think you can take a good long hard look at the multicultural education system which seeks to celebrate diversity at the expense of commonality and which demands that we're all so tolerant that we tolerate the intolerable. For example, the multi-language leaflets which are produced by local councils mean that people don't have the motivation or necessity to learn English, which can cut them off (particularly women) from the communities in which they live. Well I'd rather we provided free English lessons, so that they could read English leaflets and go shopping, and chat with their neighbours, and understand political debates on TV and be empowered to fully participate in society. If those Somali boys hated Western society, we have to ask ourselves why. (And maybe it's not our fault, but let's consider any point at which it might be and address it, just in case.)

QueenOfQuotes Sat 30-Jul-05 22:57:18

But Jan - we don't know at what stage these youngmen 'turned' against the Western World - there's no guarantee that at 18 (actually 19 if reports are correct) when he was entitled to apply for citizenship (never mind indefinite leave to remain!) he was so against the west that he wanted to blow himself up.

Obviously we don't know yet, we may never know (although I'm sure if it's found out the press will have a field day with it) but regardless I do NOT think that their basic Human Rights should be denied.

QueenOfQuotes Sat 30-Jul-05 22:58:50

Apparently Italian police 'adjusted' their statment to say the one in Italy was of Ethiopian origin, but he was also apparently a naturalised British Citizen.

Janh Sat 30-Jul-05 23:00:05

But they chose to come here - or their families did? And they were admitted, housed and fed and cared for. What gives them the right to turn on us? And then demand their own "human rights"?

I'm sorry but this really really pisses me off.

bubble99 Sat 30-Jul-05 23:01:49

But Caligula, how can a person who (allegedly) thinks so little of a living, breathing fellow human, that he seeks to massacre them, be entitled to have their human sensibilities considered? I just don't get it. If you think so little of your fellow humans how can you ask others to respect you as a human?

QueenOfQuotes Sat 30-Jul-05 23:03:23

Hang on - we know that one claimed housing benifit - we don't know if they worked - don't forget that at least one of the July 7th bombers had a job - and was therefore supporting himself.

As Caligula says I also think we should look at WHY they felt so strongly to turn against us (interesting that Pakistan has expelled ALL foreign students from it's Madrassa's)

Where do we draw the line - serial murderers, mass murderers, murderers????

sallystrawberry Sat 30-Jul-05 23:04:40

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Caligula Sat 30-Jul-05 23:05:01

Human rights isn't about them, it's about us.

Janh Sat 30-Jul-05 23:05:06

From the BBC:

<<Muktar Said Ibrahim, 27, also know as Muktar Muhammad Said, is suspected of leaving the explosive device on the back seat of a number 26 bus, in Hackney, on 21 July.
He arrived in the UK in 1992 from Eritrea in east Africa as a child refugee, with his family>>

(ie aged 14)

<<Yasin Hassan Omar, 24, is suspected of the attempted bombing of a Victoria Line train, near Warren Street, on 21 July.
Police used a Taser stun gun when they arrested him on Wednesday morning in a raid on the Hay Mills area of Birmingham.
He arrived in the UK with relatives as a 12-year-old refugee from Somalia and in May 2000 was granted indefinite leave to stay in Britain.>>

<<Osman Hussain is alleged to be the attempted bomber at Shepherd's Bush Tube station, and was arrested in Rome on Friday.
Mr Hussain was arrested at his brother's apartment in a middle-class neighbourhood outside Rome's historic centre.
He was originally said by the authorities there to be a Somali who is a naturalised British citizen.
However they later corrected this to say the 27-year-old was naturalised British subject of Ethiopian origin. He may also be known by the name Hamdi Isaac.
Italian reports said he was brought up in Italy, where his family sought asylum from Somalia.>>

Their need to seek asylum is our fault in some way or what?

QueenOfQuotes Sat 30-Jul-05 23:05:22

"If you think so little of your fellow humans how can you ask others to respect you as a human?"

So should we deny all criminals their Human Rights - after all none of them have much respect for others - where do you draw the line?

And what sort of example are we setting if we say "well we don't like what you did so we're going to deny you your Human rights"............well obviously they didn't like something "we" did so decided to deny us our human rights by detonating bombs....

Caligula Sat 30-Jul-05 23:05:24

Exactly sallystrawb - cross posted

Janh Sat 30-Jul-05 23:07:17

I'm not saying they shouldn't have the same rights as any other suspect in this country, but that they should start shouting the odds when being arrested for attempting to murder innocent people! FFS!

QueenOfQuotes Sat 30-Jul-05 23:07:26

"Their need to seek asylum is our fault in some way or what?"

None of them were seeking Aslyum, they all came in as children (not sure about the one found in Italy - but then the reports from Italy don't seem 'too' concrete)

sallystrawberry Sat 30-Jul-05 23:07:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Janh Sat 30-Jul-05 23:08:32

They came in as children but they are TWENTY SEVEN YEARS OLD now!

If they don't like the way the west works they could have left!

QueenOfQuotes Sat 30-Jul-05 23:09:52

At the end of the day they tried to (and on July 7th succeeded) murder people. They're murderers, and I don't care where they come from, how many benifits they claimed, how many taxes they've paid etc etc - they should be treated the same as any other murderer in this country. Other murderers have probably been heard to "shout the odds" when being arrested too.

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