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Changes to 11-plus to stop middle-class parents 'buying' access to grammars by hiring tutors

(1000 Posts)
breadandbutterfly Sat 01-Dec-12 21:48:28

Similar article in the Times apparently but paywall.

rainbowinthesky Sun 02-Dec-12 11:12:28

Ronaldo - I am sure I will be deleted but it sounds really boring in your house.

Arisbottle Sun 02-Dec-12 11:12:28

I am intrigued as to what it is that you are doing that means that your son just could not fit in in a state school but my children can.

Are you just being too polite to tell me that I am very common?

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 11:12:38

My DW said to me that there are pelvic exersises for ladies who have that problem.

Arisbottle Sun 02-Dec-12 11:13:38

My son is at a grammar school and we are distinctly underwhelmed . As I said we made a mistake but we cannot move him now as he would find it too distressing.

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 11:14:34

rainbowinthesky -maybe it is, I dont know. Coping with boring is another good lesson in life. smile

Spockster Sun 02-Dec-12 11:14:55

A total lack of understanding of normal, state-educated people and their cultures, backgrounds and lives; sounds familiar! A good explanation of why this country has the social problems it has, when the decisions that affect us all are made by the people Ronaldo is trying to make his DS emulate.

Phineyj Sun 02-Dec-12 11:15:07

How on earth would you 'ban tutors'? You'd have to make all private tutoring illegal and knowing how good governments are at creating unintended consequences with legislation, that would inevitably catch in music lessons, sports coaching, home education, Kumon maths & english...

I attended and now teach at a selective grammar, in one of the areas of the country where grammars educate a significant proportion of the children. The school now draws students from a much wider geographical area than in my day and it's easier for parents to find out how the system works thanks to the internet. I know a lot of people (including apparently most of the teacher training establishment) really hate grammars and everything they stand for but is selecting by parental income (independents) or house price (popular comprehensives) better?

I find it bizarre that the same people who will unthinkingly accept that a top football team or a West End show should select entirely on talent think those principles fly out of the window when it comes to an academic education. The brightest children (however you define them) are not going to achieve their full potential in an environment where it is seen as bad to be clever, they are socially ostracised and they are not challenged. I am not saying that that environment has to be a grammar but it's evidently going to be harder to achieve in a school with widely mixed abilities, unless you have a grammar-stream, in which case why is separate education within the same building so much better?

Meanwhile the independent schools I've visited are packed with the children of the aspirational, ethnic minority, middle classes...

rainbowinthesky Sun 02-Dec-12 11:15:37

Good comeback!

Mintyy Sun 02-Dec-12 11:16:28

I am finding this hilarious and intriguing. What can it be about Ronaldo's ds that makes him so unique? I really really really want to know now.

rainbowinthesky Sun 02-Dec-12 11:16:52

his parents?

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 11:17:44

Arisbottle, I have said what it is we do many times - its what makes other people find us so funny that they develop severe bladder problems isnt it? That is precisely why my DS would not fit in a state school - any state school, clearly.

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 11:18:19

I am not unique - just not state school material anymore.

Arisbottle Sun 02-Dec-12 11:19:04

If Ronaldo has only just recently entered the independent system I suspect he is a little like an overly zealous religious convert. Very excited to be part of the new club, merrily condemning those who fall out of it and trying very hard to fit in.

I suspect he is seen with amusement by those who have been in the independent system a long time.

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 11:20:40

Thank you rainbowinthesky , I will take that as a compliment.

Arisbottle Sun 02-Dec-12 11:21:03

I am not sure what you have said that means that your child would self combust the moment they entered a state school. You mentioned some vague qualities and aspirations above which my family have or do, and yet somehow mine cope with being in a state school. No, they don't cope they thrive.

What is different ?

rainbowinthesky Sun 02-Dec-12 11:21:51

Ronaldo - I would be very concerned if my child would not be able to fit into any state school.

Arisbottle Sun 02-Dec-12 11:24:23

I suspect he could fit into a state school and I say that as someone who mistakenly withdrew her son from a comprehensive thinking that he would not fit in because of SEN. Maybe Ronaldo's son has similar needs to my eldest.

I think Ronaldo sees it as a badge if honour that he thinks he could not possible be educated amongst the masses.

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 11:28:21

You have to remember Arisbottle I am from the eleite of eleitetoo - Cantab educated. I saw a lot of private educated people there. Hob knobed with the top of British Industry / legal brains and litteratti along the way. I know the difference and I would like my DS to have the advantage of that from the outset.

It was a different world and a fantastic place. I unfortunately did not have that "effortlessnes" I spoke of earlier and had to learn it. My DW on the other hand has a natural flair and finish ( as well as social class) and my DS has benefitted from her guide.

Arisbottle Sun 02-Dec-12 11:32:23

My husband and I are both Oxbridge graduates, our children still manage to mix with the masses.

It strikes me as quite sad that you are clearly so ill at ease with yourself and you are projecting this into your son.

Mintyy Sun 02-Dec-12 11:32:33

Oh I see.


Its not that your ds couldn't thrive in a state school, its just that you don't want him to? How very ordinary!

Arisbottle Sun 02-Dec-12 11:33:31

Neither DH or I would describe ourselves as elite because we managed to strike lucky and get into a good university.

Either you have some kind of personality disorder or you are making this guff up .

Mintyy Sun 02-Dec-12 11:34:41


Mintyy Sun 02-Dec-12 11:36:37

I do hope him becoming the "eleite of the eleite" isn't your main ambition for your child?

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 11:36:48

Someone said earlier what I firmly believe and have experienced . It is much harder ( if not almost impossible) to have a good work ethic and to achieve academically in an environment where it is not good to be clever or to show academic ability ( where school is not cool). It is even more difficult for those who have a high intelligence because they will be laughed at and ostracised.

State school has a culture of trumped up instant success ( I oooze talent from every pore and so Simon Cowel will be by soon and will spot my greatness as I hang on this street corner even though I havent displayed any real talent before or worked at improving it , is the obvious attitude!) and a cultural disposition for the popular. Its not cool to work or to improve at something through work.

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 11:37:40

I refer you to my earlier comment about arthritic fingers and a current CBA attitude today.

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