To wonder why there isn't more ambition on Mumsnet to change the system?

[Differentname]

all with the argument "what do you expect, it can't be done " - when other countries prove it can! Recent thread examples - of course you can't expect to have job prospects after a long spell as a sahm - yet in Germany your job is kept open for you for up to three years for every child and you have a right to flexible working - and not just a right ton ask! Or: of course you can't expect to have paid leave for a sick child - yet other countries do it -

Why is there not more expectation on working practices to change to be more family -friendly?

[dreamingbohemian]

I think it's a good question!

Another one is childcare -- of course you can't have free or low-cost childcare for everyone. But other countries do!

I understand change can be hard and expensive, yet we manage to change for all kinds of unpopular things that don't benefit everyone. I wish people would acknowledge that we could change things if we really wanted to.

[suzikettles]

I had a conversation with a couple of Americans when I was on mat leave. They were appalled by how much paid mat leave I was getting. Clearly it was impossible and would cripple my employer, and indeed the country.

And yet...and yet...

The dw of the couple I spoke to had to go back to work 8 weeks after having twins. Her mat leave was completely unpaid but she thought this was absolutely fair enough and the way it Had To Be.

I guess if the people who are mean to know keep telling you something's impossible then that just gets absorbed by the National consciousness.

[sausagesandmarmelade]

I was brought up being told that the world does not owe you a living....which is true.

People expect and demand too much...without realising the cost to the employer.

[dreamingbohemian]

suzi as an american myself, I can assure you very few mums there think unpaid maternity leave is 'fair enough'! There is a lot of agitation to improve things but it's nearly impossible to get any movement on it. The woman you spoke to sounds bonkers. All my friends back home were completely jealous of my UK ML.

[CurlyBoy]

The UK has it easy compared to the US! You are not entitled to ANY paid holiday, any paid bank holidays, any paid mat leave, or any time off if you are injured. I absolutely LOVE living here!

[PsecretPsanta]

Differentname - Germany does have some great features, but it's swings and roundabouts.

I have to pay for the Pill, for example. And there are not prescription set fees, you pay a price according to the medicine you need. For the Pill, that's about 40 euro for 3 months supply.

DD will get a place at Kindergarten at 3 and we will pay for it.

Facilities for wheelchair users are shockingly bad in my town.

Every country has a limited financial supply. Each decides how to distribute the money. One country may be great in one respect and crap in another.

[SanTEEClaus]

I am not certain but I would imagine taxes are quite high in such countries as Germany in order to pay for such thing?

And yes, US policies can be crap, but they also vary state by state.

[wannaBe]

I think the issue is one of entitlement.

I absolutely sympathize with not being able to find work after an extended period off with children (in fact it was me that started the thread), but I don't agree that someone should be entitled to walk back into their same job after three years, where does that leave the right of the person who has to step in and do your job until such time as you decide whether or not you want to come back?

Equally I'd be interested to know what people would be happy to forfit in order to be entitled to free childcare.

Yes other countries have different systems, but other countries compromise in other ways - and europe for instance pay much higher tax than we do - across the board - how many people here would be prepared to do that?

[WibblyBibble]

YANBU. I also don't get why the standard comparison is to the USA. Apart from a relative linguistic similarity (and really, US english isn't even that similar to UK english), there are no geographical similarities that make it a sensible comparison. Population density is much more similar to Germany or some other parts of continental Europe, size again more similar to European countries, climate is really pretty unique, etc. There is no way we could adopt a US-like 'welfare' system (such as they have one even), because housing is so much more expensive here. Not that I think the system they have is humane in any way at all, but if you did it here, you would just get people on the streets in huge numbers and children filling the care system overnight. We also can't adopt their culture, such as it is, because we are so much more crowded and need to interact with others rather than pretending everyone is self-sufficient. It's just really bizarre that we seem to choose to imitate a country which is so dissimilar rather than the ones which are far more cuturally, historically and geographically like ours.

[Quenelle]

What are your ideas then OP?

How are we going to change the system?

[lesley33]

Yes of course people should aspire and fight for things to be better. But it is easy to pick some things from another country that is much better and ignore the things that are worse.

For example, whenever people complain about the better medical care in some european countries I ask them if they would be preepared to pay the higher taxes these countries pay. I actually would be - but the universal answer is always no.

And in Germany it is very expensive for employers to employ staff because of the better terms and conditions. Young people who are unemployed in some cases complain about this. But Germany can afford it as unlike us they have a much stronger economy. Our economy is pretty piss poor in comparison.

[WibblyBibble]

wannaBe, given that most people under 40 in the UK are on temporary contracts anyway because of the thatcherite destruction of a stable labour market, I don't think your expectation that someone might be outraged to get a three year maternity cover contract is at all sane or intelligible. Most people in my industry area, and indeed everyone I know, is happy to get a three year contract now. Personally I think it sucks and forces people to live in an unstable manner, but I doubt given your 'entitlement' stance, that you are in favour of a more old-labour style employment system...

[OrmIrian]

Hang on. If I use myself as an example, I would be virtually useless to my employee after 3 years at home. Things change all the time as the business demands it - I learn new skills and systems all the time and not just, or even mainly with training course but mostly from experience and getting stuck in. Take me out of the work place for 3 years and I'd be a bloody dinosaur. My replacement (assuming they could find anyone to take over my role - not boasting, just stating facts) would be much more valuable to them after all that time.

[DoesNotGiveAFig]

How does it benefit childless people if jobs are kept open for three years? Although I suppose they could work as temps filling that role so it doesn't really matter.

[dreamingbohemian]

curly where on earth do you get the idea that there's no paid holiday in the US?

For hourly jobs, no, but then that's true of many hourly jobs in the UK as well.

Your standard salaried, office job in the US will have 2 weeks holiday and 2 weeks sick leave.

I agree there isn't much the UK should emulate about the US but I'm fascinated by how people consistently make things in the US sound so much worse than they really are.

[OldeChestnut]

different countries have very few benefits/support services, maybe we should take a leaf from their book

or are we picking and choosing here

[DoesNotGiveAFig]

pickling and choosing to find a new system.

[DoesNotGiveAFig]

Where taxes are low, and free benefits, childcare and holidays are high! [idealistic grin]

[Feminine]

Living here in the US , I have been shocked to discover what the average American is entitled to.

My DH gets 2 weeks paid holiday after 6 years ,one must work one year to see even a weeks holiday!

Employers have every right to sack you , with NO explanation.

Maternity leave/pay is a joke ...most women go back after 6 weeks.

Also there is NO automatic right to holiday pay/time off at all ...its all up to the employer.

Its a very unstable place to live ...and I haven't even touched on healthcare

[DoesNotGiveAFig]

no wonder the hours are ridiculous! Thats stupidly awful - what's to stop employers taking the piss??!!

[dreamingbohemian]

Feminine you are generalising as well

Every job I had in the US, I had 2-3 weeks paid holiday from the start -- I did not have to wait a year. I'm sure some people do but that's not the norm, I think.

On the other hand, here in France, supposedly the most liberal holiday country ever, my DH does indeed have to work one year with no holidays at all.

Employers can sack you but if they don't offer an explanation and you think it's unfair or discriminatory you can sue.

And one good thing about parental leave is that while it's unpaid, which sucks, it is parental, so both parents can take it.

I also think the US has much better legal provisions for disabled people, in terms of access and anti-discrimination.

[lashingsofbingeinghere]

I remember someone pointing out that the free/heavily subsidised childcare provided in some European countries is of a lower standard than here, mainly due to much higher child:carer ratios. You pays your money...

[manicinsomniac]

I think that we already have a better standard of living than the large majority of the world so should probably complain less not more.

Also, if we did change things to be more family friendly would someone else not suffer instead? For eg, you say that in Germany jobs are held open for three years - does that not mean that there must be far more short term work, temporary contracts and people being forced to leave jobs they are happy in for the sake of returning mums?

One person's gain is another's loss and all that ... ?

[bakingaddict]

As far as I know countries like Norway, Sweden etc that have seemingly superior healthcare and childcare benefits employees have to pay %50 in tax. I've read that the majority of people in these countries are employed in the public sector and that moving around in jobs is pretty impossible as once you get a job you stay put. I think its a balance between having a sufficienct amount of holiday and maternity/childcare benefits but still allowing job and economic growth.

If you had to keep jobs open for 3 years or pay 3 years maternity leave then permanent jobs would become a scarity and everybody would be on short term contracts. I happen to think we have the balance of holidays/maternity leave about right

[lesley33]

Yes cheaper or free childcare in some - but not all countries - is of a lower standard. I still remember being horrified by the provision run for 4-5 years in Gernam part of Switzerland that was basically 25-30 kids with one woman and her young adult daughter. It was the bottom part of a converted house with a small outdoor area and was pretty basic. But all the other mums seemed happy with that standard of childcare.