Should DS be paid for time spent traveling to training ?

[QuickQuestion111]

DS has recently started a coffee shop job at a local branch of a national chain. He is 21 and is paid just over minimum wage. He hasn’t yet signed any contract.
He has had to travel an hour and a half to the next city for several training days and the company has said that while they will reimburse his train ticket and will pay him for the time spent doing the actual training they will not pay for his travel time.
Am I right in thinking that because the training is not at his usual place of work that the company should be paying him for the hours he has spent traveling?
Am I correct? If I am, what law or regulations should he quote if he needs too.

Thank you. :-)

[Biggobyboo]

CherryPavlova - it’s a job in a coffee shop. The OP has said it’s not a lifelong career!

[fruitbrewhaha]

worksmart.org.uk/work-rights/training/employer-driven-training/if-my-employer-says-i-have-attend-training-outside-my

In the forth para - pay must be minimum wage
Where training is off-site, this includes time spent travelling between the workplace and the training centre.

An hour and half is a long way to travel to a coffee shop for training. Surely they can just do it at the site he will be working.

[NorthEndGal]

As a mother of 20 somethings, stay out.
He has to sort his own stuff or he wont ever be independent.

[ElluesPichulobu]

I suggest he registers on a piecework website where he can pick up casual simple jobs, and spends his time on the 1.5hr train journey doing something productive and earning wages from it.

I do a lot of paid surveys in my spare time, all of which are paid at better than minimum wage (though they do require a live internet connection so depends what the train route is like for signal).

I don't think it's reasonable for him to be paid for the journey time as the time is his own. He could be reading, or learning a new language, or studying towards another qualification, instead of doing things to earn money, if he so chooses.

I don't get paid by the hour but I do get TOIL if I work more than normal hours, and when I am on a train to somewhere that isn't my normal place of work from 7am to get to an 11am meeting which finishes at 4pm and I then get back home at 8pm, I do count that as a 13 hour day not a 5 hour day so I get the TOIL - but I spend the whole 8 hours of travelling time with my laptop open doing my normal day of work. Your DS can't exactly perform his normal job on the train so I don't think it is reasonable to be paid for it.

[QuickQuestion111]

RB68. Thanks for your reply. He mentioned finishing an hour early one day plus they have hour long lunch breaks which I presume wouldn’t count towards his working hours. I guess it’s a matter of doing the math and seeing if his pay dips below NMW for this pay period.

If it does I expect he will mention it.

[Shinyletsbebadguys]

This is an interesting lesson to teach your son about employment

I'm granted in a totally different industry but no , no one would be paid for travelling time to training. I think it's fair they are paying for the ticket and the time there.

NMW in regards to travelling was very heavily tested in my industry it made the papers but had nothing to do with travelling at the beginning and the end of the day. It was related to travelling between app ointments and the fact it dropped their on shift payments.

There was no legal requirement related to this situation that came out of it.

More importantly I would be thinking seriously about what message you are sending to your son. Work ethic is not based on whether it's a long term role or a career maker. My dp are a bit nuts but in fairness they taught me to treat every job as responsible and behave like an adult within it. One of the best lessons they taught me and I now train people and use similar advice.

If they were mistreating him and not paying for travel or expecting him to train for free then fair enough. However it sounds a lot like you are already setting him up to feel hard done by and to undermine an adult relationship with his employers.

Good luck with that. It won't end well.

[QuickQuestion111]

NorthEndGal. I have no worries at all about my son being independent. I don’t think asking about NMW law on Mumsnet will ruin that.

[PinkGinny]

In which case I would say tough and if he wants the job he needs to suck up the early start for 2 or 3 days. Not all employees will live as close or as far from the the different locations.

It's not something I would mention or indeed encourage him to brood over - it is pretty standard.

And if moving onto a grad scheme with a professional pathway he'd best get used to it - there will be no travelling time / overtime in his future either.

[QuickQuestion111]

fruitbrewhahag. Thanks for the info. That’s useful.

Shinyletsbebadguys. I’m not ‘teaching’ my son anything about work. He’s got that sorted by himself. He asked me for advice on this issue so I suggested I post on Mumsnet. That’s all.💁🏻‍♀️
I think you can have a great work ethic and still expect be paid for your time especially if you are working for NMW.

[QuickQuestion111]

PinkGinny
And if moving onto a grad scheme with a professional pathway he'd best get used to it - there will be no travelling time / overtime in his future either

I have no doubt that he already knows this.

[notthemum]

Sorry OP.
Of course they don't.
Even the DWP Say that you have to be prepared to do ninety minutes travelling just to get to a job nowadays. At least they are paying his train fares. I'm pretty sure they don't have to.

[flowery]

Travel time to a different location would probably count as working time for the purposes of the Working Time Directive, ie should be included when calculating rest breaks, total working hours etc.

For the purposes of NMW regs, only time travelled between two work locations during the working day counts as 'time work' which is what is used to calculated minimum wage entitlement. The link to the TUC worksmart website is clear that NMW is only applicable between workplace and training site. If he is going directly from home, it doesn't count.

[safariboot]

There's no written contract yet, but it's normal when you work for a chain business that you might be asked to work at a different location to usual. Training at a different location is an extension of that as I see it.

One thing I would advise DS: this won't be a one off. If they're happy to ask him to travel 90 minutes for training, they'll be happy to regularly ask him to work at shops other than his nearby one (and they won't be paying transport that time!).

[flowery]

It's really important to note that different measures of what counts as working time for the Working Time Regs and the NMW requirements are used, and these shouldn't be conflated.

I am also frankly very surprised at your level of involvement in your 21 year old son's working life, very odd. My parents wouldn't have had a clue what hours I was working or how much I was being paid at that age.

[QuickQuestion111]

flowery
Don’t be ridiculous now 😅. He asked me a question and I suggested posting about it on Mumsnet. I’m hardly in the territory of becoming his Momager.

[BarbaraFromOopNorth]

You're getting a really hard time on this thread op.

I would say, "Welcome to the world of work!". In theory, someone on a low salary should have their travel time covered but as you can see on this thread it is very much frowned upon. As with most jobs, there are lots of things that don't seem right or make you happy. You have to either suck it up or vote with your feet.

Just out of interest, do you have recent experience of the workplace? Things have changed a lot in the last ten or so years. Not the for the better I hasten to add....

[BarbaraFromOopNorth]

Also, I wish my parents had been a bit more supportive/taken more of an interest in what I was doing at that age. I had to learn the hard way!

[Biggobyboo]

Work ethic is greatly overrated. Employers do not care about you. They can get rid of you whenever they want. You toil away to make the people at the top richer.

Most people have bullshit jobs anyway.

[Trewser]

I think paying for the train and the training is prolbably more than he'd get at a lot of places.

Why not tell him to jack it in and get one of his amazing jobs that he can walk into instead?

[QuickQuestion111]

BarbaraFromOopNorth

I am getting a hard time aren’t I. 😂. I just wanted some info on the actual law relating to my question. It didn’t seem too much of an ask.
The //WWW.Gov.UK site clearly says travelling to training is included as work. It’s not at his usual place of work. fruitbrewhaha link suggests this is correct but other posters say it isn’t.

Not sure why you are asking if I work or not. I don’t as it happens but that doesn’t mean I am unaware of any of the issues facing low paid workers.

[PotteringAlong]

Just tell him to do the training or get another job, but it doesn’t need this angst. They’re paying for his train ticket, get on the train, do the training, do the job.

[QuickQuestion111]

Trewser. I said he had a grad job, I didn’t mention whether or not it’s amazing or not? Shall I ask him for you?

[QuickQuestion111]

PotteringAlong. No need to worry. You are imaging any ‘agnst’. There is no ‘agnst’. He just wanted to know if he is eligible to be paid for his travel to off-site trying.

[BarbaraFromOopNorth]

I'm not attacking you by asking if you work or not.

Work has got very hard/much more hostile in the last ten years or so. If you haven't been working for the last few years then it is very difficult to imagine what it is like. The simple fact that you asked this question made me think you've been out of the workplace.

Having said that, I think the younger generation are generally looking for something different. I know my niece wouldn't put up with something she wasn't happy with.

[BarbaraFromOopNorth]

Is it actually your son who has the problem with not being paid for the travel time or you though, op?