Should DS be paid for time spent traveling to training ?

[QuickQuestion111]

DS has recently started a coffee shop job at a local branch of a national chain. He is 21 and is paid just over minimum wage. He hasn’t yet signed any contract.
He has had to travel an hour and a half to the next city for several training days and the company has said that while they will reimburse his train ticket and will pay him for the time spent doing the actual training they will not pay for his travel time.
Am I right in thinking that because the training is not at his usual place of work that the company should be paying him for the hours he has spent traveling?
Am I correct? If I am, what law or regulations should he quote if he needs too.

Thank you. :-)

[QuickQuestion111]

BubblesBuddy
OP: to avoid the snippy comments it’s always best to say it’s your query!
Thanks, I think you are right. I’ve been on Mumsnet For ages and yet I am still surprised at how some innocuous threads attract snippy comments. I thought it was a fair and interesting question and I welcomed the helpful replies.

[BubblesBuddy]

OP: to avoid the snippy comments it’s always best to say it’s your query! For some reason mums like attacking other mums when they ask on behalf of DC who are aged over 18. Unless you are on the higher education thread, then it’s ok to talk about 25 year old DC who are still undertaking HE. Just double standards I’m afraid. I think you have every right to ask this question and often the ins and outs of employment are confusing.

[BubblesBuddy]

I’m very surprised they are training him without issuing a contract of employment. However as they are paying him travel and have arranged training, and presumably agreed a start date and wages, he does have a contract. It’s just not a written one!

[daisychain01]

If the Corporate is motivated enough to give proper training to their new staff, then your DS is working for a reasonable employer. There are plenty of corporates who do a minimalist job of training catering staff in the basics and expect them to pick stuff up as they go along, which is unfair and exploitative.

What are the views of the other people attending the course? Are they considering saying something?

Btw - Had they refused to pay your DSs travel costs and time on the course, I would have said they were being unreasonable, but you've already confirmed they will pay for his train and the time he will actually be on the course eg 9am - 4pm.

[cabbageking]

You would need to revisit his hours over the course and see if they are giving him time back for travel.

He can only claim for additional time above his normal travel or working times. Sometimes courses end early or are less than a usual day. They may plan to give him time off elsewhere. I think he needs gather more information about their plans first.

[QuickQuestion111]

flowery
My son asked me a question I didn't know the answer to so I said I would ask on Mumsnet. I can't see how that suggests any excessive level of involvement. Do you genuinely think that is excessive???

He lives at home at the moment and, like many households, we chat to each other. We ask each other questions and we ask each other advice. I think that's normal. 🤷🏻‍♀️
You saying that you find my 'level of involvement in my sons working life very odd' is insulting. I assume that was your intention. I find that a bit sad.

[flowery]

”your comment "I am also frankly very surprised at your level of involvement in your 21 year old son's working life, very odd" was ridiculous”

It’s my opinion, and it’s really not a ridiculous one, just one you obviously disagree with, which is perfectly fine, but not at all the same thing. He’s 21 not 16!

At least you’re not going as far as contacting his employer on his behalf. Now that would be ridiculous, and is something I’ve come across far more often than I should have done.

[wibdib]

Op, no it wasn’t a minimum wage job.

I think if it’s the sort of minimum wage job where it tends to be something that people live close to and can walk or get a local bus to for example (say Starbucks or a call centre etc) then yes they should be paid for the time that it takes over and above getting to their. Ormandy place of work.

Do you/he have legal insurance on your home insurance or car insurance or with a bank account etc? If so it might be worth giving them a call and getting advice. You pay for it anyway and using it doesn’t affect premiums so wouldn’t hurt to try!

[QuickQuestion111]

BubblesBuddy
He hasn't got his contract yet. If he included the travel time within his pay period it would bring his wage under the National Minimum Wage. He just asked if this was ok or not. Apparently it is ok so he is ok with it.

[BubblesBuddy]

The best place to find advice on employment is ACAS. I attach their advice. It would depend on his contract. I would assume his contract doesn’t include payment for travelling time but some contracts do include it. It’s up to the employer. However for a week he just needs to accept the reimbursement and do the training.

[QuickQuestion111]

WibDib Was your job a minimum wage job. My son wouldn't have expected to have travel time for off-site training paid if he wasn't on minimum wage (or just over). As it is it's not a problem for him that it's not paid although I could imagine it would be a problem for other people. He has spent 12 hours traveling to do this training - what if he was a single mother who had to pay childcare to cover this time?

[QuickQuestion111]

It is a long way to travel for the training but it's only a few days so not a big deal for him. I guess it's cheaper for the company to get all the staff to travel to a central location for the training than to do it in store.

They also have to do hours of online training in their own time but it was the travelling time to the training centre that he asked me about. I'm too scared to ask on here if the online training should be covered by NMW 😂😂

[TheHobbitMum]

I think it depends on the company, when we have mandatory training (Aldi) at another location other than out home store we are paid for all travel time/petrol. We clock in at our home store then travel on, after training we go back to home store and clock out there.

It seems an awfully long way to travel for new starter training, is there no way he can't do it at his usual shop? Seems to me they are asking a lot of him

[wibdib]

I used to work for a company where people had to travel for meetings and training etc - they worked on the basis that it was fair to expect people to travel an hour each way to work, even if they lived next door to their base office, on the basis that when you were employed you knew there would be travel involved.

However, anything over an hour was counted as work time - so if it was an hour and a half each way, that would be counted as an extra hour of work time.

It seemed a fair way to do it as everybody had different length journeys but it meant that there was a mechanism in there to ensure that someone who had longer journeys didn't suffer too badly. Might be worth a proposal to them particularly as his expected commuting costs would be minimal. Might also be worth asking if they pay for an overnight stay if you have to travel beyond a certain distance/time if the training days area all concurrent - and if so, what that time is.

[QuickQuestion111]

flowery. I've thanked people for posting several times and I am grateful to you for posting about the legal situation. However your comment "I am also frankly very surprised at your level of involvement in your 21 year old son's working life, very odd" was ridiculous and comes across as trying to have a go at me.

[flowery]

”flowery Don’t be ridiculous now 😅. He asked me a question and I suggested posting about it on Mumsnet. I’m hardly in the territory of becoming his Momager.”

You’re very welcome. Glad I went to the trouble of posting accurate legal advice.

[QuickQuestion111]

Thanks Noeuf and prh47bridge that seems clearcut.

RhymingRabbit3. I wasn't convinced I understood what was written in the www.gov.uk website about minimum wage which was why I asked on Mumsnet. There are some knowledgable and helpful posters on here who I thought would be able to help.
Saying that you believe I am still certain he should be paid is untrue. I don't think that and I haven't said anything to suggest it. I explicitly said in an earlier post that I was happy to be corrected. 🤷🏻‍♀️ i just wanted to know why?

I've a lot of time for posters such as prh47bridge who I know know their stuff and who I see posting helpful and constructive advice on many threads. I'm more that happy to take their advice on this and I'll pass the info on to my son.

Anyway, I appreciate all the helpful posts. Thank you.

I'm a bit bewildered that some posters seem so put out by my thread but it's all part and parcel of starting a thread on Mumsnet I suppose. 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️.

[prh47bridge]

The important sentence from that article is "this includes time spent travelling between the workplace and the training centre". It does NOT include time spent travelling between home and the training centre.

[SouthWestmom]

worksmart.org.uk/work-rights/training/employer-driven-training/if-my-employer-says-i-have-attend-training-outside-my

Read this

[RhymingRabbit3]

TheWWW.Gov.UKsite clearly says travelling to training is included as work

Why bother to ask here then, if this website has already convinced you that you are correct. You wanted clarification, many people have clarified that he is not entitled to pay. You are still certain he should be paid. Maybe your son should quote the Gov.uk website and see how that goes down

[Bouledeneige]

Well I'd not really encourage this type of approach to employment in a young person. It's a bit jobs worth isn't it and a bad precedent for his future career. No one likes working with done who complains about the rules and regulations all the time. Being positive and helpful is a better approach in life.

In reality he is having to spend less of his day working and the training is only for a couple of days. Why make a fuss? He can think about getting another job if it's all too much bother for him. If I were you I'd leave him to it. He's a big boy now.

[prh47bridge]

The //WWW.Gov.UK site clearly says travelling to training is included as work

That is on a page about maximum weekly working hours. It counts for that purpose. However, as Flowery says, it does not count for national minimum wage purposes provided he goes direct from home to the training without first going to his normal place of work.

[PlumsGalore]

i get TOIL for travel for the time over and above my normal commute or get paid for over and above my normal
Commute. I think he should get the difference over his normal travel back morally, no idea what the law says.

[QuickQuestion111]

Sorry about the typos earlier.

[QuickQuestion111]

BarbaraFromOopNorth

Is it actually your son who has the problem with not being paid for the travel time or you though, op?

I know it would make for a more interesting thread if you thought I was sitting here frothing about this but I'm really not. He asked me about it and I said I'd start a thread on mumsnet and ask for clarification. I don't know why posters are so keen to make so much more out of this.
I've asked a straightforward question and wasn't expecting the tone of some of the replies to be quite so forthright. 😂.
Still, I appreciate posters who have taken the time to answer my question.