calling all solicitor mummies!

[Laffytaffyx]

HI

Wondered if you could help? I completed a law llb 7 years ago. Now I'm a secondary school teacher and I would like to leave the profession to become a solicitor. Am I mad?

I am able to fund my lpc however the training contract looks even more of a minefield then it was back then! What do you think my chances are? I'd have to brush up on my legal knowledge but the fact I'm a career changer will that put me at disadvantage? Also with a lo nearing a year old is it do able? Would appreciate your experiences any experience or advice.

Thanks!

[Living]

OP this might help to explain the work thing. I know teachers work long hours but a lot of that is work from home. My friend who teach are generally home by 6 and then do dinner and bedtime before picking up the work again after the kids are asleep.

As you progress up in the profession you can work from home a bit in law too but that option isn't really available to trainees.

As a trainee you have to prove yourself and (rightly or wrongly) part of that is being seen to be 'client focused' i.e. willing to drop everything because the client has decided they need a piece of work now. You can't really manage your workload as a trainee - you do what you're given, hang around until your supervisor has time to review it and then ask 'is there anything else I can help with' around 11pm.

I actually really like being a lawyer and would hate to be a teacher However, I'd like to feel I can commit to seeing friends in the evening every now and again without having to warn everyone that I need to leave by 7pm!

[atticusclaw]

I remember all too well hanging around for corporate completions at 2 in the morning. It really isn't fun but as a 23 year old you can do it since you generally only have yourself to worry about.

As a mother of a baby it would be far more challenging.

My DH's trainee was in the office after midnight three nights last week (as was he). We recently went on holiday for a week and DH spent the first three days of the holiday on the phone trying to get work done with a dodgy mobile connection and an ipad. At one point I was bringing him meals in the hotel room.

One trainee recently said they couldn't travel to another office to help out for a six week project because they'd be too tired with the commute. The partners' eyebrows nearly disappeared into their hairlines. It's really harmed their chance of an NQ role. It's not the way it should be but it is the reality of many areas of the legal profession.

[florencedombey]

Ha ha. I remember laughing (!) at my supervisor as a first year trainee when he suggested we meet at the office at 4am prior to driving to a meeting the other side of the country. I'd naively thought he was joking. He wasn't joking. (I still got kept on though.)

[MadeInChorley]

I absolutely, categorically could not have done my training contract with a baby and/or toddler - well, not without paying a full time day nanny and a night nanny for 24/7 cover just in case and I didn't mind never seeing my children. To say you are expected to be flexible in a law firm is an understatement - you won't last past your training contract in a commercial if there is a hint that you have a life.

My DM was a deputy head and worked hard but she had a predictable timetable - marking, lesson planning, reports could all be done at home. In teaching she always knew weeks in advance about parents evenings or school trips.

In contrast, I work in a corporate firm and worked in the office until 11am then 2am two nights in a row between Christmas and New Year when I was supposed to be on holiday at my in laws in another part of the country. Totally unexpected - something blew up. Luckily, DH could cover the childcare (not a lawyer but a stressful professional job). A friend with a PhD who teaches at a university looked aghast and said "Why didn't you tell the partners you have children so couldn't do it!". I nearly fell about laughing: (a) they all have children too and (b) they don't give a shiny shit for your family life (c) it's going to my fault if I don't "lean in" and do this because if the client doesn't sign his deal before year end it will cost him £££. I'd be managed out pretty quickly if I hadn't.

It will be tough to get a TC with BBB and non-red tick uni. Personally, I would play up your experience as a teacher but not play up your desire to work in education. It's too niche and will pigeon hole you.

And often law is really not very intellectually challenging. Chasing signatories and filling in SDLT forms is dull

[atticusclaw]

What does your DH do OP? If he's a SAHD you'd be ok (although you'd still never see your DC)

[PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom]

I was a lawyer in a large firm. Hideous work/life balance made me leave.

I would have needed 24/7 childcare to do a tc with kids. Or a partner who can do every drop off, pick up, sick day etc. Ever.

I could be tootalling along nicely and at 5.55pm wham, something blows up and you are there to 10/12/2.

And time recording is an utter bugger. If you are extra efficient, you just don't make target.

I loved the intellectual side of my niche area. But I will never go back to fee earning.

[PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom]

Oh, and in 10 years I learned to only make evening plans for very special occasions. Meeting a friend for drinks dwindled to other lawyers who weren't offended when you called to say you'd be another hour or cancelled entirely.

[MissBeehiving]

I'm a solicitor in the public sector. The money is rubbish but I do have the advantage of being able to practice law which is intellectually challenging . I'm able to work part time and flexibly. That's not to say that there aren't late nights involved but it's only a couple of times a month at most.

I wouldn't encourage anyone to go into the law, it's such hard work and TC are very very hard to come by.

[SpaghettiMeatballs]

OP, just for further context I was a criminal practitioner. Whilst there is no doubt the commercial firms expect the longest hours I was on the duty rota and conferences with counsel started at 5pm once they'd got back from court.

It was fine as I was young, keen and childless. It would be utterly impossible now as my DH works abroad a lot so I have to be home overnight to care for the DCs.

I guess it really does come down to what your DP does and how he can help but again the stumbling block there is salary. Trainee salaries are so low you can't support a SAHD.

[atticusclaw]

OP would you be hoping to work part time? That would be difficult until you were more qualified and had managed to prove yourself.

[Living]

I think you're getting the picture OP :). I did do a tc with young children (now a NQ and nothing much has changed). I'm glad I did but I'm used to never seeing my children (awake) in the evening. I also have a husband with very regular hours who picked up a lot of the slack (and is an absolute star) and a full time nanny. I can afford this because I'm not in the UK and my husband is a high earner.

The tc was OK, working as a paralegal whilst doing the LPC part time, proving I deserved a training contract and having two under two for part of it was hell on earth.

[Laffytaffyx]

Wow such a clearer picture -I'm glad I've created this post.. a lot to consider. OH runs a business from home and although this is flexible it's not a complete stand in. Thanks Living for further insight.
God I'm glad I asked...

[Laffytaffyx]

Anyone had an experience like this lady here?

www.michelmores.com/news-views/news/training-contract-and-family-life

One experience at a firm but not respesentative of all your views at all it seems. Serious wishful thinking here.

[Living]

justwanna - I agree everyone thinks they're underpaid and overworked . The big issue here though is the OP is going to have to spend an awful lot of money to retrain and she then stands limited chances of getting a job afterwards.

OP - I have never heard of a trainee who has never had to work past 7! Doubt she's lying and she does seem to still be at that firm but my guess would be her salary is lower than you're on now as a teacher as a qualified lawyer.

[PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom]

OP- that trainee is:

• six months in;
• has been doing a seat in commercial property, which in smaller firms does have a reputation for more predictable hours; and
• has been wheeled out as PR, which they wouldn't have done if she'd been on a nightmare deal in those six months.

I'd ask her again in five years.

Also, the thing with being a trainee with small children isn't just that they are overworked. It is the fact that, on 10 minutes notice, you can be required to stay until the early hours of the morning. I've never heard of that happening in most professions, including teaching. My mother is a teacher and, although it was very hard when we were small, she could reliably pick us up on time (and finish off after we were in bed), she had holidays to spend with us and she never had to take calls/go into the office at the weekend.

[MadeInChorley]

What Penguins said. It's a very, very unpredictable job and as a trainee you will be totally at the mercy of clients and supervisors.

Justwantsomesleeeep - I realise I sound negative and yes, it's true that whatever career you post about entering, the current practitioners will always throw up their hands in horror and point out the bad stuff. But if the OP was posting about wanting to do the LPC and get a TC straight out of uni aged 22 with no DCs and no other career behind her then I'd say it's a tough profession but very do-able. With young children, BBB at A level and non red brick uni, no flexibility about location of TC, then the chances of getting a paid TC and secure job are slimmer. The challenges of a career as a solicitor for the next 30 years until retirement have been pointed out already. To spend all that money on LPC and to leave a secure profession needs careful thought.

[atticusclaw]

That's the difference here justwantsomesleep, it's really not a "Why shouldn't it be you? Go for it!" type of decision. Its not a situation where you think "I reckon I could do that job, I'll whack in an application and give it a shot."

The LPC is horrendously expensive and not an easy year. There are far more law graduates wanting to get training contracts than there are training contracts so to get a TC you really need to stand out from the crowd. The OPs academic background works against her. Many firms are ditching or dramatically reducing their training contracts (which are comparatively expensive) and getting their junior resource by hiring very cheap paralegals (most of whom are law graduates who haven't managed to get a training contracts) and even if the OP does get a TC she is then in for a very, very tough couple of years in terms of work life balance and her DC would be a toddler/just starting school. Then she'd be an NQ assistant solicitor with high expectations as to the number of hours she works and relatively low salary (particularly given her investment in her career). Then she'd be an associate with even higher expectations as to the number of chargeable hours she works plus a whole heap of admin and business development on top and a slightly higher salary. Then she'd be a senior associate with massive expectations re chargeable hours, masses of admin and business development, managerial responsibility and the constant threat of redundancy over her head because she's reached the stage where she's expensive compared to an associate but doing similar legal work.

We're simply saying its not a profession to pick if you want any semblance of work life balance until you get to the top (circa 15-20 years PQE). Then, if you're lucky, you get a little more leeway in terms of flexibility. But often that only comes if you're prepared to set up on your own (and believe me that has its stresses too!)

[atticusclaw]

Again, by way of illustration I was at work by 7.30 this morning and am still at it. I've literally not seen the DSs all day (in bed when I left, in bed when I return). I have another two hours ish to do this evening. I didn't stop for lunch and I grabbed crappy McDonalds for dinner and ate it in the car whilst driving because I had no time to stop for dinner. I'm now brain dead so MNing for 15 minutes to give my brain a rest whilst waiting for a document to come through from the other side.

My life has been this way for 20 years. And I'm one of the lucky ones re work life balance!

[ReallyBadParty]

I was a criminal court solicitor, had to quit that as it is impossible to work with the demands of courts, consultations,etc and childcare. I would have required a full time nanny, and the cost of that would've been pretty much what I was making.

And that was ten years or so qualified, not a trainee.

[Littleoaktree]

I agree with all the PPs this is something you need to think about carefully especially with your academic background/restrictions on location etc.

However to give a slightly different picture than some of the PPs, I had my first child at 1pqe (so not quite the same as during a TC), was with a large regional firm, went back part time with flexibility to leave at 5 (and I always did unless pre arranged) and work from home in the evenings. Had second child there too. However the problem was I was then on the 'mummy track' and no chance of promotion.

So I changed firms, to a much smaller firm though with a lot more work. I still technically work part time but tbh it's pretty much full time however again I do have agreed flexibility where I essentially work 9-5 and then 7pm-late so I can pick up the dc, put them to bed etc before sitting down to work again (from home). The workload is hard to juggle and the downside of being able to now pursue a career (as opposed to a job which the last place had turned into) is that I don't have much time for a life outside the dc and work, if I'm not looking after the dc I'm working. But the plus side is I can do it from home (and that's accepted at my firm) and I can fit it around the dc.

However this level of flexibility is quite unusual and unlikely at an early stage in your career as you have to prove yourself first.

It is also, as others have said, extremely competitive - if I was you what I would do is put a lot of effort into applying for the vac schemes this year and see if you get accepted on one. If you don't then maybe you should accept that your realistic chances of getting a TC are low. If you do get accepted then you probably have a chance of getting a TC so make the most of the vac scheme and see what it's really like.

[Stripyhoglets]

I wouldn't do it. You really risk working harder with longer hours for alot less money. And I know how hard teachers work. It's a difficult profession with young children as well.

[Stripyhoglets]

I work public sector so do have a reasonable work life balance. But jobs are constantly being cut here at the moment as well anyway.