Discussion about abortion: part 2

[purits]

Can someone explain this idea of "my body, my choice" because it has never sat easy with me.

Some women seem to feel that they are the ultimate arbiter of whether they should / should not have an abortion and that the man involved and society have no say in this.
Yet once a baby is born, women suddenly insist that the man is a part of the process and must pay towards the baby's upkeep, even if he never wanted the baby. It does seem to be a case of 'heads I win, tails you lose'. Not sure that is an apt analogy, but you get what I mean - it all seems stacked in the woman's favour and it all hang's on her "choice" and no-one else gets a look-in.
Doesn't seem equitable to me.
Go on: flame me and tell me where I'm going wrong.

[happysmiley]

What's wrong with

• DS, please, please, please use condoms. They are much better for your sexual health and 99% likely to protect you from an unwanted pregnancy. However, if you're the unlucky 1% for whom they fail, the right thing to do would be to stand by the girl and your child and take responsibility. If you're not prepared to do that, you shouldn't be having sex.

To be honest, the girl would still get the rougher ride, so I'd have very little sympathy with your DS in that situation. She's be the one left bringing up the baby, while your DS would be off to university, starting his career as he'd always planned.

And surely, she's only a "scheming harlot who is out to trap her menfolk" if she got pregnant on purpose, ie told him she was on the pill when she wasn't? Using condoms should help him avoid any "scheming harlots".

[Mookymoo]

DuelingFanjo I'm speaking from experience of dealing with women who've had IVF and then decided to abort, I'm not making a casual remark.
Unfortunately it's not as 'extremely rare' as people think, although it is a very small percentage.

[happysmiley]

Tbh I dread to think how your poor dd would feel if she fell accidentally pregnant and wanted to keep the baby. Would you think that she was a "scheming harlot" or just the victim of bad luck?

[ImSoNotTelling]

Interesting thread.

I would ask the following questions.

At what point does a man get to decide whether he wants the baby or not - up to term or some point before that

In the case of a planned pregnancy, if the foetus is found to be disabled, at that stage is the man allowed to change his mind?

What happens in cases where a couple have previous children and the female was under the impression they were a secure family unit - may the male still exercise his right to distance himself from the pregnancy

What happens in the case where a child is damaged during the birth process and likely to be disabled - can the man withdraw his support as long as he does so before the child is actually out of the vagina

Does a signed contract need to be in place before a baby is born, that the man agrees to support it? Otherwise if the couple split later, he can say that the pregnancy was unplanned and he never wanted the child and thus needs pay nothing

What happens if women are unable to obtain this signed contract? Won't it all come down to each side of the couple saying something different and who is to be believed?

And so on. Apart from everything everyone else has said, i want to know how this will work in practice.

[ImSoNotTelling]

Can a man decide to withdraw support when the sex is found out?

Can a man decide not to support children even if he plans to continue to live with the mother?

This raises very interesting questions IMO.

[purits]

"Would you think that she was a "scheming harlot" or just the victim of bad luck?"

Not the former, if she stays true to type, but who knows? But I do know that she will be in charge. The boy wouldn't be.

I don't hate women, swallowed. I purposely asked how to explain this to DS so that he wouldn't hate women. Coming up with a trite 'keep it in your trousers' doesn't really work for teenagers, especially when it's their mum saying it.

[ImSoNotTelling]

The flipside of this idea is an assumption that the men involved will be more than happy with never having any contact with the offspring.

I actually think that is a proposition that most men would find extremely unappealing.

The ones who find it appealing are more than likely the ones who are paying nothing towards their children currently. So you get your wish.

Anyway I am still interested to see how this will work in practice, if you could address teh points in my previous post that would be great.

[purits]

ISNT: the premise is that a man wants an abortion but the woman doesn't. Therefore the man is only allowed to distance himself before the legal abortion limit, so that answers any birthing questions. There would also be an assumption that the man would support, so it is up to him to lodge an official objection if the opposite is true: it is not for the woman to get contracts etc.

[cleanandclothed]

What I will tell my DS is - be prepared for a baby if you sleep with someone. Use condoms.

And I will tell him the (true) story of a (male) acquaintance who (in a lifetime of one night stands) got drunk, had sex with a female acquaintance who fancied him and told him she was on the pill, didn't use aa condom, she got pregnant, he told her he didn't want it, she had the baby, told him the baby was his, he didn't believe her and pretty much forgot about it, then she had to tell the CSA in order to keep her benefits, he had a DNA test, and found out when the child was 5. Lost his girlfriend over it. Now loves the child but is faced with a lifetime of interaction with the mother, and no dubt very difficult questions from said child when they are older.

My sympathies are mixed in this situation, but my DS will be told it is a reality.

[ImSoNotTelling]

Why would the premise be that the man wants an abortion and the woman doesn't?

That is TBH.

Your pre-current abortion limit thing doesn't address my questions about sex or disability either.

[ImSoNotTelling]

What is the penalty to a woman if she wants an abortion and the man doesn't, and she has one against his wishes?

[ImSoNotTelling]

Does she have to pay him £1000?

[happysmiley]

purits, what about the situation which raised upthread: couple plan a child, woman gets pregnant, man gets cold feet and changes his mind. If he does this before the abortion limit, how could the woman prove that the child had been planned?

Also, the advice, wasn't keep it in your trousers. It was use a condom. What's wrong with that? Seriously, most "victims" of the type of behaviour cleanandclothed outlines won't have done and I can't have too much sympathy with that.

[sixpercenttruejedi]

have lurked on mumsnet for ages but never posted but just cant stop myself.... sorry if it's been pointed out but isn't purits stirup backwards? have enjoyed the feminist threads but dont want to see it swamped with trolls. i can see the usefulness of honing and defining arguments but some things are depressing to always see debated again and again. it stalls the debate which is sad considering the brilliant discussions that have been had since the feminism topic's been created. sorry to intrude, back to lurking

[ImSoNotTelling]

I find it interesting the way that anti-feminist/pro men/snoffair etc people so often end up being so utterly horrible about men.

This idea assumes that men are responsibility shirking twats who are incapable of emotional bonds, shag around and are too thick to use a condom and don't care a fig for any offspring they leave along the way. Horrible.

Someone earlier said the OP doens't like women very much. She doesn't like men very much either as far as I can see. Both men and women appear to be assumed to behave according to some outdated sexist stereotypes. None of this relates at all to the vast majority of the poeple I have known in my life.

[ImSoNotTelling]

Good spot on stirup, sixpercent. I don't know whether you're right or not but the OP does seem very bizarre, and not really interested in a conversation.

It's nice to see you posting, it would be great to see you posting some more!

[purits]

LITR I was using colourful language. However, it is not unknown for women to get pregnant accidentally-on-purpose.

I'm sorry if I don't address every point but there are a lot of them!

HS re the planned pregnancy. How about there are two rates of child benefit - one for planned pregnancies (needs both signatures) and a lower for unplanned. The man is not allowed the walk-away option if the TTC is registered. (I'm making this up on the spot: please feel free to point out errors in the logic).
The advice yesterday was to keep it in his trousers. Or even get a vasectomy.

ISNT The premise is that the man wants an abortion and the woman doesn't because that is the only scenario that causes a problem. If they agree (for or against) then there is no problem. If she says no and he says yes then 'my body, my choice' does trump in this case.

I'm not sure what you do about gender discrimination. Make it illegal to disclose the gender until after the last legal date for abortion? I'm still thinking about the disability one.

[purits]

Ah well spotted, 6%, it has taken many years for anyone to pick up on that.

[ImSoNotTelling]

Why is it not a problem if the woman wants (and has) an abortion, but the man wants a baby?

I cannot even begin to understand why that situation is not a problem

Are you a troll or is your name just mischevious while your posts are serious? I think I have seen you around.

[ImSoNotTelling]

All of this "get the signature and get the cash" stuff gives men quite a lot of power over women at a vulnerable time, doesn't it. A lot of opportunity for men to hold women to ransom (if they are that way inclined).

It is starting to sound like the difference a few decades ago between having children in wedlock and out of wedlock.

Is that the model you prefer purits? A woman should take care, because unless she is already married, she cannot count on any support in the event that she becomes pregnant. And the men either choose to marry the woman and accept responsibility, or they can walk away and she can do what she likes but it's got nothing to do with him.

But men don't want that, on the whole, do they? They want to know their children.