Petition to stop Tesco's selling lads' mags

[SkaterGrrrrl]

www.gopetition.com/online/34857.html

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I don't get why some posters are saying this petition is trying to stop girls from getting their tits out. If we wanted to do that we'd be picketing photo studios.

What this petition is against is the resulting photos being plastered up in supermarkets, and shops all over the country, in full view of anyone, man, woman or child who happens past.

By the way, it's never feminists that you'll find restricting what women can or can't wear, that's the habit of the patriarchy.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Thanks for the ego-stroking btw, I specialise in crap analogies made to order.

[franch]

Signed.

[KinderellaTristabelle]

Signed.

Exactly, SpeedyGonzalez!

I agree with so many of the comments here regarding the sexual portrayal of women affecting men's view of them. The media objectification of women certainly had an adverse effect on how I viewed (and still view) myself as a woman.

If it was people of a certain colour or ethnic background who were being consistently portrayed in the media in the way that women are, it would be totally unacceptable and rightly so. It would be akin to hate speech. Its no more acceptable to do that to women.

I've no objection to nudity, sex (quite enjoy it actually ) but I hate the way that women are constantly portrayed as being there for male consumption. I really think it damages our society.

Liking the Seagull analogy also.

dittany, exactly. I have been in that situation and agree 100%. It was not only intimidating but downright dangerous.

[Scardypants]

KT, your post has swayed me, signed.

I've found the whole thread very interesting actually. Slightly embarrassed by my lack of knowledge and understanding of the issues raised, think I may seek out a few blogs/books.

I have some very traditional views and my marriage could be seen as somewhat traditional but I feel quite conflicted now. I've been so comfortable in my relationship with dh and with our choices but I'm raising a dd and a lot of what I've read in the last few days has made me question if I'm preparing her the real world outside our home.

[SpeedyGonzalez]

KT, you're right about the race/ ethnicity thing - for example, not so long ago it was acceptable to publicise images of the 'stupid negro' - eyes rolling, gawping, unable to make an intelligent decision for themselves and dependent on intelligent whites for everything. If you watch Gone With The Wind (one of my favourite films, sadly), ALL the black characters are utterly despicable: Butterfly McQueen's lying, stupid, gullible, unreliable maidservant role; the male slave and female 'Mammy' house slave - both of whom remain fiercely loyal to their masters/ mistresses despite the fact that these very same people are fighting to keep them as slaves. And let's not even start on blaxploitation movies. That sort of symbolism would never be endorsed today unless done in an overtly ironic or critical manner.

But somehow when the issue is being female, people are allowed to get away with much more. I simply do not understand why. Have you all read the other thread in this section about people using 'girl' as an insult? I can see a close correlation there to this discussion.

Another point that's come to mind is the whole matter of how the sex industry treats women. I hear time and time again of how women enter the sex industry as a genuine choice, etc etc, and yet despite this apparent 'choice', abuse of these women is rife. Is it really acceptable for a woman to say: 'well it was my choice to become a lap dancer so even though I have to put up with sexual harassment from my male bosses I can handle it, and I feel empowered because it was my career decision'? Sexual harassment is not acceptable in an office job (or Tesco's ), is it? And the 'empowerment' argument reminds me of a story of an acting couple, where the woman was offered a part which involved nudity. She told her husband about it before accepting the role, and he said 'Honey, I don't have a problem with you taking this role, but just know that while you may be taking your clothes off for artistic purposes, to everyone else they'll just be looking at your tits.' Surely women deserve better than this?

Incidentally, the same sexual harassment/ abuse also happens in mainstream fashion modelling where young girls are subject to sexual abuse behind closed doors. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that male models are subjected to the same levels of abuse; anyone know about this aspect?

So while on the one hand I try to remain open-minded when people talk about women's genuine choices to work in the sex industry, there is such a wealth of evidence of abuse that it is extremely hard to see it as being on a par with work in other, non sex-related industries in terms of the impact it has on those women.

[KinderellaTristabelle]

Scardypants, I'm glad.

SpeedyGonzalez, I agree totally. I think it depends on how free a choice it actually is in terms of having genuine alternatives. If that's your only vague hope of a comfortable life financially, then how empowering a choice is it really?

I don't think anyone should be berated for making the best choice they can under the circumstances, but lets not kid ourselves its 'empowerment' to be in a situation where the best choice you can make is one where you're exploited. If your 'choice' is made through a lack of viable alternatives then its hardly a free choice.

[KinderellaTristabelle]

Agree also Speedy on the impact sexual exploitation has.

Its one thing to be exploited for your labour in a badly paid job, quite another to be sexually exploited. Its a much more intimate and vulnerable part of your personality that is exposed.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Agree about a continuum of exploitation moving in fashion photography too. Did you see this about photographer Terry Richardson exploiting his models?

[AppleTreeWick]

Signed

[SpeedyGonzalez]

Ugh, what a horrible story, E&M, I hadn't heard about that before. However, I am surprised by how candid he was about himself towards the end of the article - I think the Pope could learn a thing or two .

I wonder whether what happens is that dodgy men gravitate towards careers where they can exploit girls/ women, or once men are in such industries the loopholes create the settings through which some of them choose to abuse. Perhaps it's both.

I also do not understand this idea, which I've heard before, that girls are so desperate to become models that they'll put up with such exploitation. I suppose it's partly because they're mostly very young and inexperienced in life. Maybe I'm just an old git, which is why I think fame, riches and stardom are overrated and meaningless.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I think if someone did a survey it would be surprising how many women in all walks of life had been propositioned by someone promising to help them get ahead in their career. Or, indeed, threatening that without sleeping with certain people, they would get nowhere in their career. It's certainly happened to me. I said no by the way - wonder if that's why I'm unemployed now! (joke-ish)

Not surprising if some go along with it. Especially in something like modelling where the girls are usually young, along. Also it's a small community of people who all know each other, where a recommendation (or the opposite) counts for everything.

[SpeedyGonzalez]

E&M - yes, I think you're right (though I have no experience of this - perhaps I'm a hag but it's apply that any woman should ever feel she has no option but to go along with such a proposition. I'm sure, also (despite your half joke!), that there are still many options of progression without subjecting oneself to exploitation like this. I'm not convinced that all successful women have had to sleep their way to success.

As for the small community thing - exactly, which is why it's so appalling that people like Richardson could get away with abusing girls like that. Everyone knows what he's doing, and yet nobody (with authority, I mean, not the young girls) challenges him. Despicable.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Sorry I meant to say, yes to some people going into careers where they can exploit their target group. Sometimes there's a bit of a weird assumption that abusers or criminals in general are a bit think perhaps, but they know what they want and they set out to get it. It's grim.

Certainly all successful women haven't slept their way to success , it's just crap that success is still dangled in front of us in return for sleeping with some knobhead. Who knows if the success would ever really result anyway? Probably not. I decided it wasn't worth it anyway - thought everytime I looked at my heaving awards cabinet I'd have terrible flashbacks

[cocolepew]

Signed

[dalloway]

done

[MyGoldenNotebook]

Yes to all points about exploitation. I just hate it when I say that I'm totally against pornography and people say that I'm being patronising towards the women involved.

Reading through this I feel more angry about it than ever. I've had so many infuriating conversations about this with men.

I'm now determined to really read into this subject and have some facts and statistics (I always fall down on this point - my opinions are mainly based on observations and discussion) to evidence my argument in a more powerful way. Is there a good book on the subject?

[KinderellaTristabelle]

'Pornified: How porn is damaging our lives, our relationships and our families' by Pamela Paul.

I also liked 'Are Women Human?' by Catherine MacKinnon.

There are some good essays in there on pornography also.

[SpeedyGonzalez]

Oh lordy, Kinder. I'm already trying to read up on and understand about a million key issues in life. Now you've just added to my reading list. Thanks for the suggestions!

Lenin - I was having palpitations over your missed full-stop. Thank goodness you rectified your heinous error

[SpeedyGonzalez]

.

[Molesworth]

Kinderella, it'd be great to add those books to the 'reading list' thread