Holding out against self-id: Can we do it?

[DameMaud]

It is a rollercoaster of hopes and disappointments in the effort to stem the tide of gender ideology impacts in the UK, and on balance I feel mostly hopeful of our ability to hold out here.

But every time I hear about the growing number of other countries bringing in self-id, such as Spain, and now more recently, Germany and Sweden; I wonder how long we can hold out as such an outlier.

It feels like a game of Risk, where all the pieces are left only on the UK and are ominously surrounded.

How does it work long term if every other country brings in self-id and we don't?

How do we imagine this might play out?

How does it work where more and more people have legal opposite sex status in their own country, and that is not recognised here?

I'm trying to get my head around what this would actually look like.

[Esgaroth]

In the UK, I think self ID is dead in the water. Thanks to the tireless efforts of UK feminists and other campaigners, who kicked up just enough fuss just in time, they were unable to sneak it through without the public noticing. I don't think they will try it again. The mood is different in the UK for some reason. One of the main problems here is that many institutions have been operating on Stonewall law, so we have many of the downsides of self ID without the actual law behind it, but I'd say that things are moving in a positive direction at least.

Unfortunately the UK still has the concept of 'legal sex' as distinct from actual sex, so there will be no conflict with self ID nations I shouldn't think. I expect the UK recognises foreign equivalents of a GRC without quibbling about how they were acquired.

But self ID isn't the root of the issue. Self ID vs what the UK already has in the GRA is a question of degrees. The root problem is the whole concept of 'legal sex' and what that means in practical terms. So while the amendments to the GRA had to be robustly contested, all the problems caused by the original legislation still exist.

I don't hold out much hope of the GRA being repealed any time soon.

[dolorsit]

I don't think the uk recognises all GRCs from elsewhere. I have a vague memory of that being an issue with the Scottish proposal as it would have impacted on the uk rules.

Not 100% certain though.

[MultiPolarista]

I imagine it plays out like this unfortunately;

Govs around the world latch on to GI as a cheap, easy and painless (no one gives a fuck about women's rights right) way to be popular or seem relevant without actually making any meaningful changes to peoples lives.

Labour get in 😔and self ID effectively comes in through Blair Starmers mealy mouthed bullshit.

There are horrendous scandals' (already started but it will get much worse) and obviously absurd situations (the police trying to enforce fantasies).

Mumsnet feminists keep shouting to the rooftops about it all (despite increasingly draconian censorship and media control)

Mainstream political parties lose what little credibility they have as their idiocy, immorality and incompetence are exposed (even more) and the field is wide open for any party/individual who promises anything other different.

Its not a great prognosis for the short/median term sadly and even more people are going to get badly hurt one way or another.

But the good news is GI IS going to be universally acknowledged as toxic rubbish. That part is inevitable.
Its is such utter nonsense and so toxic to so many that it would take a totalitarian system to sustain it. And I believe keeping a totalitarian systems going in the modern world with all our Information Technology is going to be very difficult, especially when there will be other countries/civilizations that are publically not buying into GI.
Basically it will make society so unstable that it will be either sticking with GI, or having a functioning society.
At that point GI will be discredited and ditched (and much re-writing of personal history will be going on)

[Redshoeblueshoe]

Effectively we do have self ID here. RMW, IW, EI - none of them have GRC's and yet all feel free to use women's toilets etc. In fact Scarlett Blake who the police, courts and BBC all referred to as she - doesn't have one either

[mrshoho]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/spanish-soldiers-have-exposed-the-flaw-in-the-countrys-gender-self-id-law/#:~:text=Whether%20or%20not%20Perdigones%20is,you%2C%20is%20seemingly%20all%20that's

Hopefully a lot more of this type of thing will lead to other countries imploding.

[RethinkingLife]

Labour get in 😔and self ID effectively comes in

Call me Cassandra but accurate. They might even do a Biden and make it their first action in office…

[mrshoho]

Houston we have a problem!

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/03/25/in-spain-non-normative-trans-suspected-of-sabotaging-gender-transition-law_6650777_4.html

Good, they were warned!

[TempestTost]

I think if Labour gets in this election, they will pass the so-called total "conversion therapy" las, amd they will bring in what is so close to self-id that there will be no differernce. I also think that while they will continue with the current trajectory against medicalizing children, they won't do the same for adult transitions and they will not challenge social transition of kids, nor the capture of the civil service and other arm's length statet bodies.

That's a prediction rather than a hope.

[Chariothorses]

The UK does not recognise GRCs from other countries if they were obtained through self ID.
I think
1- The list has recently been updated
2- This procedure was put in place by the Labour gov who passed the GRA
3- but some of their MPs recently objected to it.
Current list
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories

[Esgaroth]

@Chariothorses

The UK does not recognise GRCs from other countries if they were obtained through self ID.
I think
1- The list has recently been updated
2- This procedure was put in place by the Labour gov who passed the GRA
3- but some of their MPs recently objected to it.
Current list
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories

Thanks for the correction! This is interesting to know.

[Esgaroth]

@Redshoeblueshoe

Effectively we do have self ID here. RMW, IW, EI - none of them have GRC's and yet all feel free to use women's toilets etc. In fact Scarlett Blake who the police, courts and BBC all referred to as she - doesn't have one either

Yep, Stonewall law. It's also a problem that is baked into the original GRA as you can't ask to see someone's GRC. So in practical terms it usually doesn't really matter if you have one or not. Very stupid law.

[Floisme]

I don't think they would explicitly call any new legislation self ID now but I'm in no doubt that efforts to implement it through the back door will intensify. The TWAW lobby are not going to pack up and go home. I don't think this will ever be over, regardless of who's in government.

I believe that, as previous posters have said, GRCs are only recognised here if they were issued in a country that follows a similar legal procedure. There was a debate about it in the HOC of Commons a few months ago where Kemi Badenoch made the Labour shadow minister look like an idiot.

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

I have a feeling that France might hold the line.

In France it is not necessary to have any medical treatment in order to change your legal sex, but you must have a judge's permission to do it, so there is a certain level of gatekeeping. I'm not sure how it works in practice but I would imagine that if you have an obvious piss-taker such as Isla Bryson, the judge would be likely to give them pretty short shrift.

In 2022 Macron was seen as the presidential candidate the most in favour of LGBT rights, and yet when he talks about LGBT rights his focus generally seems to be on the LGB. He seems to stay fairly quiet on the T.

No idea who is most likely to get elected in 2027.

[DameMaud]

Thanks for the gov.uk link Chariothorses. That is useful to know.

Picking out some parts from posts so far that stand out for me, and when put together, highlight the complexity and unpredictability:

Esgaroth

One of the main problems here is that many institutions have been operating on Stonewall law, so we have many of the downsides of self ID without the actual law behind it, but I'd say that things are moving in a positive direction at least.

And

The root problem is the whole concept of 'legal sex' and what that means in practical terms. So while the amendments to the GRA had to be robustly contested, all the problems caused by the original legislation still exist.

If we do manage to amend the EA here, could that have an impact on other countries thinking about this, in the way Cass seems to have the potential to?

Multipolarista

Its not a great prognosis for the short/median term sadly and even more people are going to get badly hurt one way or another.

But the good news is GI IS going to be universally acknowledged as toxic rubbish. That part is inevitable.
Its is such utter nonsense and so toxic to so many that it would take a totalitarian system to sustain it.

As more reports come out from countries, (such as Spain and the soldiers bonkers-ness) and the ramifications are seen- are some countries likely- or even able- to roll back on self-id?

TempestTost

I think if Labour gets in this election, they will pass the so-called total "conversion therapy" las, amd they will bring in what is so close to self-id that there will be no differernce.

This is a big worry for me! I can't get over the sense that the conversion therapy bill is absolutely key in the strategics here, and it looks like it might be brought in regardless?

[Esgaroth]

I don't think there's any point amending the EA to make it clearer that discrimination to make a service or space single-sex is permitted because it's already clear that this is the case. The problem is that service providers often don't do it (partly because Stonewall et al have been very successful in persuading them that it's not permitted).

Do you mean amending the EA so that service providers are not just allowed to provide single-sex options but required to do so? I'm not sure it would be practicable whilst we still have legal sex as a recognised concept... it's all such a fucking mess.

What needs to happen is repealing the GRA. This really would be 'removing rights from trans people' (even though it's a stupid right that contradicts reality and causes a world of problems) so it's not going to happen for decades yet.

[ItsFunToBeAVampire]

I don't think we'll get something actually called "Self ID". I do think that once Labour gets in, one of the first things they do will be to "demedicalise" transition and getting a GRC. Maybe one visit to a GP to sign off on it.
The next few years of a Labour government will be filled with identity politics and when another election comes around, I imagine that we might well get a government that is further right than the current Tories as backlash.
That's my prediction anyway.

[DameMaud]

I see what you're saying re the EA and GRA Esgaroth. Thank you for explaining.

I've been following the discussions on this on here for a while, and this area- the interplay of EA and GRA- is where it gets so confusing and feels hopeless. I admit I am not clear on this at all!

Even as the ramifications do become more recognised, it seems everything is just too embedded; legislatively and culturally.

I'd really like to understand and imagine how this could potentially play out in the long term- beyond just holding back the tide. From within the country and without.

It's easy to get pulled into focussing on the many, small battles being played out and being lost and won, but when I pan out and think of it on a mass scale it's hard to imagine a way back.

I love and hold onto the image of little 'Terf Island' , David and Goliath style, returning the world to sanity. Perhaps I'll lose my own sanity that way though!

Plus, I'm spending far more time on MN FWR than I usually do- which makes the scale of it all even more apparent. But it's hard not to when so much is happening!

I'm heartened by the impact of Cass. Got to hold onto that I think.

[PriOn1]

I was incredibly disappointed this week to hear the news from Germany and Sweden. I get the impression that in Germany, at least, it was done with little notice, presumably with the intention of minimizing the time for objections and protests. I hadn’t heard it was going ahead in Sweden either, until a day or two before.

I had thought that, given the current climate, European politicians might have thought twice, but as has occurred before, I underestimated the sheer power of the lobby pushing this forward. I wish I could stop doing that, but it seems unbelievable that everything that has occurred and is occurring hasn’t even made a dent in their ability to thrust it all aside and progress anyway.

I suspect they are being aided and abetted by the current instability. In more normal times, I think this topic would be considered much more significant when it comes to voting. We really are in the middle of the perfect storm and in the hands of some very slick, well funded and experienced influencers.

I don’t think we can rule out Labour doing something very similar if they have a big enough majority, early in their term in the hope that the inevitable furore will die down before the next general election. Sad to say, I don’t think we are safe, despite the claimed changes in their manifesto.

”Its is such utter nonsense and so toxic to so many that it would take a totalitarian system to sustain it”

This genuinely worries me. It’s never really crossed my mind that totalitarianism could come here, but I feel now that might turn out to be yet another example of the false sense of security I had built up, by growing up in a time of relative stability and growth.

And on that cheery note, I shall go click post!

Edited to respond to the cross post:

”I'm heartened by the impact of Cass. Got to hold onto that I think.”

I too was absolutely heartened by the response in the UK parliament. The wind is currently blowing in our direction in the UK. I never thought I’d say this, given how awful the Tories have been recently, but I wish the general election was not approaching right now.

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

@PriOn1

I was incredibly disappointed this week to hear the news from Germany and Sweden. I get the impression that in Germany, at least, it was done with little notice, presumably with the intention of minimizing the time for objections and protests. I hadn’t heard it was going ahead in Sweden either, until a day or two before.

I had thought that, given the current climate, European politicians might have thought twice, but as has occurred before, I underestimated the sheer power of the lobby pushing this forward. I wish I could stop doing that, but it seems unbelievable that everything that has occurred and is occurring hasn’t even made a dent in their ability to thrust it all aside and progress anyway.

I suspect they are being aided and abetted by the current instability. In more normal times, I think this topic would be considered much more significant when it comes to voting. We really are in the middle of the perfect storm and in the hands of some very slick, well funded and experienced influencers.

I don’t think we can rule out Labour doing something very similar if they have a big enough majority, early in their term in the hope that the inevitable furore will die down before the next general election. Sad to say, I don’t think we are safe, despite the claimed changes in their manifesto.

”Its is such utter nonsense and so toxic to so many that it would take a totalitarian system to sustain it”

This genuinely worries me. It’s never really crossed my mind that totalitarianism could come here, but I feel now that might turn out to be yet another example of the false sense of security I had built up, by growing up in a time of relative stability and growth.

And on that cheery note, I shall go click post!

Edited to respond to the cross post:

”I'm heartened by the impact of Cass. Got to hold onto that I think.”

I too was absolutely heartened by the response in the UK parliament. The wind is currently blowing in our direction in the UK. I never thought I’d say this, given how awful the Tories have been recently, but I wish the general election was not approaching right now.

Edited

For the first time in my life I am actually contemplating Tory.

I don't want the Tories in government, but they won't be. They will lose.

At the next election there is a chance of the seat going Lib Dem, and despite having previously voted Lib Dem in most general elections, I now want to see the fewest Lib Dems possible in parliament.

[PriOn1]

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

For the first time in my life I am actually contemplating Tory.

I don't want the Tories in government, but they won't be. They will lose.

At the next election there is a chance of the seat going Lib Dem, and despite having previously voted Lib Dem in most general elections, I now want to see the fewest Lib Dems possible in parliament.

A hung parliament with Labour in power, but no overall majority (including coalitions with SNP/Lib Dems) might be the best possible outcome to buy time.

[DameMaud]

Can't you at least humour me with some false hope @PriOn1 ?😂

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

@PriOn1

A hung parliament with Labour in power, but no overall majority (including coalitions with SNP/Lib Dems) might be the best possible outcome to buy time.

I'm not so sure. The Lib Dems and SNP are far more bonkers than Labour when it comes to gender woo.

I honestly think I would rather Labour had a working majority than that they had to rely on smaller parties for support. Because if the only thing they can all agree on is that #transrightsarehumanrights, self ID might end up becoming the only thing they get done.

There have been some encouraging noises from some Labour MPs in the light of Cass, but crickets from the Lib Dems.

[Floisme]

@PriOn1

A hung parliament with Labour in power, but no overall majority (including coalitions with SNP/Lib Dems) might be the best possible outcome to buy time.

I totally disagree. I dread to think what kind of deals Labour would make with other centre left parties if they don't win a clear majority.

Plus I think it would spell the beginning of the end for Starmer's leadership and, much as he annoys me, I'll take him rather than some kind of Angela Rayner/Ed Davy led coalition.

I might yet vote Labour if I think there's a chance of it happening.

[EasternStandard]

It’s a very good post op and good question

It really does feel like a rollercoaster

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

@Floisme

I totally disagree. I dread to think what kind of deals Labour would make with other centre left parties if they don't win a clear majority.

Plus I think it would spell the beginning of the end for Starmer's leadership and, much as he annoys me, I'll take him rather than some kind of Angela Rayner/Ed Davy led coalition.

I might yet vote Labour if I think there's a chance of it happening.

Yep.

Labour have no chance where I live and I was planning to spoil my vote by adding JK Rowling to the bottom of the list and ticking that box, but if there's a chance the Lib Dems might win I might have to hold my nose and vote Tory.

I'll have done a complete U-turn from "whoever stands the best chance of getting the Tories out, i.e. Lib Dem" to "whoever stands the best chance of keeping the Lib Dems out, i.e. Tory" in five years. How depressing.