Telegraph: ‘I will not put my girls in that organisation’: How a trans crisis engulfed Girlguiding

[ResisterRex]

I couldn't see this posted. It covers the "Rainbow" story, males with guns as volunteers and other recent developments in GG. On "Rainbow", one mother says:

“I really object to my child being used as a prop in this social experiment of pretending that biological males can be girls. Girlguiding is telling my daughter that something that isn’t true, is true. And to think the opposite is wrong.”

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/06/will-not-put-girls-organisation-how-trans-crisis-engulfed-girlguiding/

[Helleofabore]

Sorry, whilst I understand your fears, I know what it’s like to be on the other side of this argument.

So, to be clear, you are ok with a male sharing a tent with tween or teen females? And shower facilities?

[Artichokeleaves]

@Readytoplay

I am autistic (Ciss-female). When I was a guide, at camp I had to be sterogated from the other girls at night in case there was an ‘incident’ (I had never acted violently or even had a meltdown whilst at guides) I had to share a room with my mother, upstairs, while all the other girls were downstairs having fun. I was told it was “to keep everyone safe”.
Being told that you are a potential danger to others at 11 years old, has actually left me with some trauma 10+ years on!

Because of this, I feel passionately that organisations must be fully inclusive. We can’t make assumptions based on what is in between someone’s leg or their brain wiring and assume these characteristics automatically pose a danger.
Sorry but I can’t condone another child to have the same trauma I have. Sorry, whilst I understand your fears, I know what it’s like to be on the other side of this argument.

How do you plan to be 'fully inclusive' when including male children in a female only group will exclude female children?

Some of whom will be unable to attend a mixed sex group because of neurodivergence, disabilities, faith, culture, belief.

This is not inclusion. Inclusion is not only for TQ+ male people. Other children with protected characteristics are not less important than TQ+ male children.

There are mixed sex organisations in spades where children can go if they don't wish to go to ones that are for their biological sex, their desire to go to an organisation that is for the opposite sex, and remove this opportunity and facility for children of that sex for their own personal feelings and wishes to be fulfilled?

It's selfish. It's not acceptable. Other children are not owed to distressed youngsters with gender syphoria as a consolation prize. And no, pretending that things are other than reality is never under any circumstances appropriate or acceptable to do, regardless of how sad anyone may feel about other people's boundaries. For goodness sake, we do not teach children 'the answer is no unless the other person cries and says how sad your no makes them' for very obvious reasons.

There are no fears thanks. There's just plain awareness of total unacceptability regarding safeguarding, and experimenting in the hopeful wish that nothing awful happens for political reasons? That's not safeguarding, that's plain nuts.

[ItsTuesdayToday]

YorkshireTeaCup but that just says that they "can" and that views of parents can be taken into account. I can't see that it says the information regarding mixed sex should be actively withheld from parents? My concern isn't mixed sex per se, it's mixed sex being implemented without my knowledge

[Readytoplay]

@Helleofabore

Sorry, whilst I understand your fears, I know what it’s like to be on the other side of this argument.

So, to be clear, you are ok with a male sharing a tent with tween or teen females? And shower facilities?

I would be ok with children who are biological male and Biological female sharing a tent, yes.

[Helleofabore]

@Readytoplay

I would be ok with children who are biological male and Biological female sharing a tent, yes.

Why? When we know that currently there are many rapes in schools and schools are clamouring to address the issue. Including sex abuse with phones etc.

Why do you think a male is not a risk sharing a tent with tween or teen females?

Or showers?

[JellySaurus]

Because of this, I feel passionately that organisations must be fully inclusive.

Fully inclusive in an organisation for girls means that transboys (female children with a masculine identity) are fully included and their presentation and sense of self accepted.

Fully inclusive in an organisation for girls does not mean including males, however they identify and however sad they feel about missing out on girly stuff. It certainly does not include hiding males in plain sight, without any real safeguarding measures.

As for your experience, I am genuinely sorry this happened to you @Readytoplay. I have Cub and Scouting Leaders in my family, and I myself work in a related field with NT and ND children in mixed groups. We would never isolate a ND child during a fun activity and tell them it is to keep others safe. That absolutely should not happen. Fully inclusive in that context would be training Leaders in ASD. Inclusivity sessions on neurodiversity with the Pack, Working with your parents to create a clear timetable for you to access a safe space to help you to re-regulate yourself. Providing you with a one-to-one supporter. Having a parent present on camp if that would be helpful. But not cutting you off. The only way that would happen would be if your parent insisted.

[Artichokeleaves]

It's one thing to say, hypothetically, that you as a parent (or imagining how you may feel if you were a parent) would be willing to take the risks of ignoring safeguarding guidance and putting mixed sex children together to avoid upsetting a TQ+ identified child.

It's another to be willing to be the person taking responsibility for the children in this situation, who will be the one at the serious case review if it goes wrong. I wouldn't be willing to take that responsibility regardless of what I was paid. I'm trying to imagine writing the risk assessment.

It's not just the girls either when I do the necessary worst case scenario what might go wrong that I have to show I thought ahead of and planned to protect the kids from - the girls with undisclosed reasons I'm not aware of who may be highly stressed and unwilling to share a sleeping space or shower space with a male child, or be excluded from attending: the age differences (are we talking about a 15 year old male with 11 year old girl in the room etc?), what if a girl is assaulted or ends up pregnant? It's also the male child in the situation who is very vulnerable if one of the girls makes an accusation or disclosure. If I've done this a la GG HQ plans and told no girls or parents, what happens when the male child is faced with girls saying no, or having to be blunt about the reality of their sex when this is uncomfortable for them? Wtf do I say to parents of a girl who comes home severely traumatised from an assault or accusation or worse that happened on my watch, while she was in my care, and parents thought she was in a single sex facility, I had concealed that information for political reasons, and they consented to something on false grounds instead of making informed consent?

You can hang someone else out to dry thanks, I am not carrying the can for that or ever putting any children I care about in these kind of risks so that adults who will never have skin in this game can feel nice about their theoretical inclusivity. The reality is that this does not work.

Even if I had parents sign forms in advance clearly stating "I understand my child will be in a mixed sex mixed age dormitory without adult supervision and adults cannot be held accountable for any unfortunate events that occur because of this" I don't think it's going to save anyone's neck if something goes badly wrong.

This is the point of safeguarding. That we don't cross our fingers and hope it'll be lovely, while being willing to let kids be harmed in pursuit of our lovely ideals.

[NotBadConsidering]

@Readytoplay

I would be ok with children who are biological male and Biological female sharing a tent, yes.

Bonkers. Please don’t ever take a job that involves safeguarding children.

[Thelnebriati]

I can't get over how many women are crowing over the removal of safeguarding, and on a parenting website. What they are advocating is not legal. It breaches safeguarding and the sex based rights of girls.

[Helleofabore]

It's another to be willing to be the person taking responsibility for the children in this situation, who will be the one at the serious case review if it goes wrong

Yes, if I was more than a parent volunteer, I would be absolutely horrified at the risk of having a male and female sharing accommodation and showers.

I am even more horrified to think that any adult would then think that this would be ok if my child was involved!! So I would like to know why an adult would make this decision. Why would they think that this was acceptable?

The level of trust I had for GG is completely eroded.

[Readytoplay]

@Artichokeleaves

How do you plan to be 'fully inclusive' when including male children in a female only group will exclude female children?

Some of whom will be unable to attend a mixed sex group because of neurodivergence, disabilities, faith, culture, belief.

This is not inclusion. Inclusion is not only for TQ+ male people. Other children with protected characteristics are not less important than TQ+ male children.

There are mixed sex organisations in spades where children can go if they don't wish to go to ones that are for their biological sex, their desire to go to an organisation that is for the opposite sex, and remove this opportunity and facility for children of that sex for their own personal feelings and wishes to be fulfilled?

It's selfish. It's not acceptable. Other children are not owed to distressed youngsters with gender syphoria as a consolation prize. And no, pretending that things are other than reality is never under any circumstances appropriate or acceptable to do, regardless of how sad anyone may feel about other people's boundaries. For goodness sake, we do not teach children 'the answer is no unless the other person cries and says how sad your no makes them' for very obvious reasons.

There are no fears thanks. There's just plain awareness of total unacceptability regarding safeguarding, and experimenting in the hopeful wish that nothing awful happens for political reasons? That's not safeguarding, that's plain nuts.

I am confused on why Neuro diverse and disabled children would become unable to attend. As for faith, ultimately that is a
choice that one is free to make. However because it’s a personal choice you’ll need to accept that not everyone will share your personal beliefs and that people have a right to have policies/rules that contradict your personal values.
Girls can still participate in the activity regardless of someone with a penis being admitted or not.
I personally think that organisations like this should be mixed sex anyway, I personally think a big way to improve misogynist/sexism within society is to integrate both sexes at childhood.
What about young boys (KS1) who wants to dress up and discuss fairies, there is no where that provides this. Yet because rainbows is for girls, their activities revolve around more stereotypically feminine themes. Surely this is just reinforcing gender stereotypes?

[Thelnebriati]

Mixed sex sleeping accommodation is not just an issue of faith. I don't think any of you really believe girls are ever victims of sexual abuse, or live in abusive homes because you really aren't aware of the impact of these policies.

[JellySaurus]

What about young boys (KS1) who wants to dress up and discuss fairies, there is no where that provides this.

Women and girls are not service humans for men and boys. It is not the Brownies' responsibility to provide play space for boys who don't meet masculine stereotypes. How about men teaching boys that it's fine to dress up and play fairies?

Equal between the sexes is not achieved by forcing girls to always mix with boys.

[Readytoplay]

@Helleofabore

Why? When we know that currently there are many rapes in schools and schools are clamouring to address the issue. Including sex abuse with phones etc.

Why do you think a male is not a risk sharing a tent with tween or teen females?

Or showers?

Yes I am well aware that it happens and it’s horrendous. But where is the line drawn? Would you allow your children if one was a girl and one a boy to share a tent on family camping trip? Because unfortunately sibling rape happens as well. Would you allow your teen to go out to town if her friend group included boys? Because there are plenty of secluded areas where no one would see. Do you not send your child to school until Year five? because before Year Five, children do not have to be separated when changing for PE (and vice versa).

[Thelnebriati]

FFS, organisations are expected to provide single sex sleeping accommodation for children while they are acting in loco parentis; there's the line. Stop trying to undermine it.

[UWhatNow]

Jeez biological girls really can’t have anything to themselves can they? A nice girl-only pursuit. But no, let’s ‘be kind’ and budge up for boys. After all males have no record of ever doing anything detrimental females do they? They’re perfectly safe. And best get girls used to giving over everything to males - that’s how society is constructed - to keep men at the top of the privilege chain. Why stop now.

[titchy]

Do you not think teachers should be DSB checked then @Readytoplay After all we don't check other adults our children come into contact with - parents of friends for example, so maybe we shouldn't bother. I mean the risk is so low isn't it there's no point in safeguarding at all is there?!

[Chersfrozenface]

What about young boys (KS1) who wants to dress up and discuss fairies, there is no where that provides this.

Why can't he go to Cubs?

Honestly! If a boy wants to dress up and discuss fairies, he has to go and do it with the girls, because boys don't do that? Talk about reinforcing gender stereotypes!

Cubs should be fighting gender stereotypes and letting boys dress up and discuss fairies if they want to, and explaining why other children, especially other boys, mocking and bullying a child who wants to do that is wrong.

[titchy]

Yes I am well aware that it happens and it’s horrendous. But where is the line drawn?

Oh the line is drawn at mixed sex accommodation. Quite an easy one that.

Where it is possible to reduce a risk, that risk MUST be reduced. Sure some slip through the net, but let's not slash bloody big holes in the net so a whole load more also slip through.

[JellySaurus]

When your son and daughter share a room, as mine did for several years at home, and on holiday for several years after, and your daughter wants to get changed in the bathroom, you don't say to her "Don't be daft, he's your brother. Change in the bedroom with him." No, you respect her desire for privacy and allow her to change in the bathroom. Same goes for him. You teach them to respect each other's boundaries. You teach them that they are worthy of respect.

But if you've got a group of little girls in a dorm away from home, and they are fully aware that there is a male in one of the beds, but you are telling them that it's a girl and they must treat this male as a girl, and undress in front of this male, regardless of their desire for privacy, you are not respecting their boundaries. In the contrary, you are teaching them that they are not permitted personal boundaries. You are setting them up for trouble in future years, when they will not understand that it is OK to say "No" to a man.

[Readytoplay]

@titchy

Do you not think teachers should be DSB checked then @Readytoplay After all we don't check other adults our children come into contact with - parents of friends for example, so maybe we shouldn't bother. I mean the risk is so low isn't it there's no point in safeguarding at all is there?!

Yes of course they should! as should any adult working or volunteering with minors or other vulnerable people! Where did I say they shouldn’t?

[ilovesushi]

There were lots of girls in DS' scout troop. When they went camping the girls and boys were quite rightly in separate tents. In this case, I wonder what the arrangements would be or if they even have a clear policy on this. DD never made it from Brownies to Guides. I was going to say it was very dated, but early days of the Girl Guides was much more about camping out in the wild, first aid and signalling (if early 20th century girls own fiction is accurate!)

[CoffeeWithCheese]

@Cherryblossoms85

I've a much more prosaic reason to out my daughter into scouts instead: the guides uniform is a disgrace. Even on parade they just wear a t shirt.

I'm giggling at this because I was having a conversation with my old guide leader (I was in the organisation for all of my childhood and got so much out of it) about the one guide who'd showed for the local church parade where I now live rocking a baseball cap sideways on (Kevin the Teen style) and how my first thought was that "X would have gone nuts on us showing up like that"

I really wanted my daughters to get the same from Guiding as I had - had them registered for Rainbows from early on - but the trans agenda combined with how Guiding seems to have really really gone for the "girlie" stereotypes these days, and leaders locally who could only really cope with the very placid girls who were happy sitting colouring in every session - meant we really didn't fit in there and they moved across to Beavers and then Cubs and the eldest is heading toward Scouts age soon. Yes mixed-sex, but openly mixed-sex and none of this "you can be a girl if you say you are" stuff muddying the waters - and the range of opportunities they've had, and great leaders - really has been good for them.

My issue really is with girls being pressurised into believing (or feeling unable to disagree with) this narrative that "X says they're a girl so you have to treat them as one and don't mention the fact X has a willy" - especially with one of my girls having expressive language issues - I've HAD to be clear with her using language so that she develops the vocabulary to express if anything ever DID happen to her - and I'm not having that negated.

[Helleofabore]

@Readytoplay

Yes I am well aware that it happens and it’s horrendous. But where is the line drawn? Would you allow your children if one was a girl and one a boy to share a tent on family camping trip? Because unfortunately sibling rape happens as well. Would you allow your teen to go out to town if her friend group included boys? Because there are plenty of secluded areas where no one would see. Do you not send your child to school until Year five? because before Year Five, children do not have to be separated when changing for PE (and vice versa).

Are you seriously trying to hand wave away the risks with your weak whataboutery?

From a certain age, no, I wouldn't expect a female child to share with a male child. Do you understand that female children are getting their periods earlier and do you think that female children deserve not only protection, but privacy and dignity?

I would be finding alternatives with any school where my female child over about 7 or 8 is expected to share changing rooms? Wouldn't YOU? In fact, I DID write and complain when my child was expected to change in a facility that had no privacy and the other sex were able to see in, in Year 6. As did other concerned parents.

Would you allow your teen to go out to town if her friend group included boys?

Depends on the group, the activity and how old. Do YOU not check who your child is out with? And if there is a child present who may be an issue, seek ways to provide support to your child if the situation is something they are uncomfortable with? I quickly learned from incidents in Year 6 just how quickly and easily things can get out of hand when tweens and teens have mobile phone cameras.

Because there are plenty of secluded areas where no one would see.

No kidding. I am a parent, I KNOW this! I have also been a guiding volunteer and a volunteer with other activities... yes. I KNOW.

I also have had too many friends and family raped as tweens and teens. I am very well aware of what can and, in fact, does happen.

I am very well aware that some people will waive away risk because they don't believe it happens. It does happen. That is why there is supposed to be strong safeguarding measures in place.

[Helleofabore]

I would be finding alternatives with any school where my female child over about 7 or 8 is expected to share changing rooms? Wouldn't YOU? In fact, I DID write and complain when my child was expected to change in a facility that had no privacy and the other sex were able to see in, in Year 6. As did other concerned parents.

Ie. the students were changing in separate sex areas, but in make shift areas that allowed other kids to see in.