I'm so f****** proud of myself.

[ItsANiceDayForAFeministRant]

By nature, I am a quiet person who avoids confrontation and silentlyds seethes instead. Today I stood up for myself. I am so fucking proud, and adrenaline filled! I'm currently editing a book for a man that I was introduced to. The way he refers to women throughout is disgusting, they are "good lays," and described only by if they are old and disgusting or young and sexy. He only ever calls them girls regardless of age.

In the first scene where only girls are talking, they sit around and talk about how fit the men are, how big their penises are. And for the worst bit that really fucking triggered me - he narrates how an adult male teacher gets a hard on and has a wank because a teenage pupil teased him. (Obviously it's the little slags fault...)

Every other paragraph is another assault on women. And pathetically, it got to the point I was almost in tears to be completely honest. The men in my life are feminists too, men who appreciate and support women. So to an extent I forgot that for some men, this really is how they view us. "Pieces of skirt" to chase. I gently suggested that we change this conversation to something more substantial and told him about the Bechdel test.

He said, and I quote "I wanted the women's chat to be irrelevant just like in real life." At this point, I don't know what came over me. But I absolutely let it rip on him, I was direct, honest and said exactly what I wanted to. I'm still shaking now, and I just wanted to share this. Because I really am, so fucking proud of myself today.

[pinkyredrose]

I'd tell him to find someone else to edit it. I feel quite uncomfortable that a man thinks it's ok to write that way. Does he appear to be misogynistic in other ways?

[JediGnot]

It sounds like it would be reasonable of you to point out that very few men have the necessary levels of empathy and skill to write women, which is why such a tiny proportion of adult males are published fiction writers. Tell him that in your opinion the book is unlikely to ever appeal to women, nor to those men who can recognize reasonable quality writing about women, and that you will undertake some light editing but nothing more.

You could ask him to justify the rape and masturbation - both from the point of view of whether it is needed at all, to precisely how it has been done.

It would also be reasonable to say that you find reading it uncomfortable and you feel obliged to stop working on it and that he should find someone else to help him.

[Novelusername]

Men like that probably won't listen to any of your advice anyway. I had a bloke ask me to look at his novel once. It was dire for a number of reasons, including the only female character, the wife of the main male character, being a two dimensional nagging harridan. I suggested he flesh this character out a bit, so that rather than nagging her husband all the time and flying off the handle, she could show some moments of self-reflection. He then reluctantly rewrote some sections and showed me them again. The character was the same as before, but he'd included some scenes where she was wondering to herself 'why am I being such a bitch'. You won't get through to him anyway, and I suspect, as with my guy, his 'masterpiece' will not find a publisher.

[CharlieParley]

@Flapjak

Not sure i agree with this, it may be sexist and puerile but isnt he entitled to write that within context of free speech. I feel it is broaching into terrority of where writers have to be audited to erase anything that could be offensive? What about writers like irvine welsh, lots of offensive characters in that and liberal use of misogynistic terminology.

As an editor, I'm required to give feedback on quality. I'm not telling a writer he or she cannot say something just because it is offensive, I tell them what to change, take out or put in so the story works and reads better. And then they can take it or leave it. I always title my editing work as suggestions for that reason. It's my opinion as an editor. It's their decision as the author on whether to accept all, some or none of it.

And as the OP pointed out in nuanced feedback on the scene in question, under different circumstances this scene may have worked better. That's entirely appropriate to the scope of her job there.

Good for you ItsANiceDayForAFeministRant! Well done for speaking up. Unfortunately, I've found that too many self-publishing writers don't understand the value of editing and then get upset when the response to their work criticises exactly those things a good editor suggested they should fix. Thankfully that attitude is usually easy to spot.

Just remember that you can fire a client, too. It's very freeing.

[HollowTalk]

He sounds disgusting.

But on the other hand, it's not an editor's job to write any of the book for the author! They make suggestions but it's along the lines of "You've lost the suspense at this point" or "Fix this so the reader is really scared" or "This scene is completely unrealistic." They give an overview of the novel as well, but never ever write the bloody thing!

Just out of interest, how much is he paying you and how much time are you spending on it? How long is the book? I edit for Jericho Writers so can compare prices.

[ShadierThanaPalmTree]

I don't know him well enough if he is really as sexist as he comes across in his writing. And for some unexplainable reason I do feel like I owe it to him because he is friends with the family. But in good news - he has replied to me! And he seems to take taken it really well. He said:

"I absolutely agree with you and that is why I am pleased you are on board and even more pleased that you can tell me straight what you think. I love what you have done so far. I do want the girls to stand out and be funny. Hopefully really funny. Not as a joke themselves but they can mix it and stand out. I didn't give them enough adventure so was hoping to make their personality stand out. I bow sincerely to your grater knowledge on this matter. I think you have zoned in on an important matter here. Maybe you can turn this around and they express something on casual stereotypes. I'm willing to try."

Which makes me feel like I did the right thing, and I'm pleased that he's open to my ideas!

[PermanentTemporary]

I wonder if he'd do better just to take the female characters out. If they don't interest him, why bother?

[RedDogsBeg]

Just reading about him and what he's written is making my skin crawl, I wouldn't want to touch anything of his let alone this 'book', nor would I want to be anywhere near him. Urgh.

[HollowTalk]

NC fail, OP?

So he wants you to rewrite it to make it funny?

[IntermittentParps]

Maybe you can turn this around
No, HE can. Unless he's willing to pay you to ghostwrite.

[RedDogsBeg]

@ShadierThanaPalmTree

I don't know him well enough if he is really as sexist as he comes across in his writing. And for some unexplainable reason I do feel like I owe it to him because he is friends with the family. But in good news - he has replied to me! And he seems to take taken it really well. He said:

"I absolutely agree with you and that is why I am pleased you are on board and even more pleased that you can tell me straight what you think. I love what you have done so far. I do want the girls to stand out and be funny. Hopefully really funny. Not as a joke themselves but they can mix it and stand out. I didn't give them enough adventure so was hoping to make their personality stand out. I bow sincerely to your grater knowledge on this matter. I think you have zoned in on an important matter here. Maybe you can turn this around and they express something on casual stereotypes. I'm willing to try."

Which makes me feel like I did the right thing, and I'm pleased that he's open to my ideas!

What a cop-out and now he wants you to write portions of the book for him to hide and cover up his revolting misogynistic, sexist view of women and girls. The bow sincerely to your greater knowledge in this matter is a Grade A patronising virtual pat on the head.

How can you turn around your opinion of him so quickly after you wrote this in your opening post?:

The way he refers to women throughout is disgusting, they are "good lays," and described only by if they are old and disgusting or young and sexy. He only ever calls them girls regardless of age.

And for the worst bit that really fucking triggered me - he narrates how an adult male teacher gets a hard on and has a wank because a teenage pupil teased him. (Obviously it's the little slags fault...)

Every other paragraph is another assault on women. And pathetically, it got to the point I was almost in tears to be completely honest. The men in my life are feminists too, men who appreciate and support women. So to an extent I forgot that for some men, this really is how they view us. "Pieces of skirt" to chase.

|

[Mermoose]

Ages ago I signed up to the website YouWriteOn (it's a website where you upload pieces of your writing & get feedback in return for giving feedback on pieces that are assigned to you). I gave it up after a short while - almost all the writing from men on there was semi-pornographic and dripping with misogyny. It really was like looking under a rock.

[ArabellaScott]

OP, how badly do you need the money?

I've worked as an editor; this is not a professional set up. It's not going to 'turn around'. The man is a creep, it's a yucky hobby project, it will go nowhere, and unless you are completely comfortable with setting very VERY strong and strict boundaries you risk getting into a potentially unpleasant situation.

You are under ZERO obligation to pander to this man. You have NO duty to help him or teach him or change him, or even be polite to him.

Get out, is my advice. No need to get into a discussion about it, justify it or apologise.

Just cut it loose and move on with your life.

[dworky]

All the men in your life are feminists? Incredibly fortunate.

[IntermittentParps]

I agree with Arabella.

[Cowbells]

OP, well done. I did similar once - flagging all the misogynist bullshit in a novel I was editing and pointing out how it would alienate his readers. He absolutely lost it with me. Screaming down the phone that I was a leftie Guardian reading feminist (all true - no insult as far as I was concerned) and that he couldn't work with me. He was quite taken aback when I agreed very calmly. Later he sent a message saying the rest of my edits had been really useful.

But be warned - he might well try to bully you. Just keep your cool and your sense of humour. Don't back down.

[Delphinium20]

Good for you!!

[Lottapianos]

'Get out, is my advice. No need to get into a discussion about it, justify it or apologise.'

Also agree. I would not want to work with someone like this

[JediGnot]

@ShadierThanaPalmTree

I don't know him well enough if he is really as sexist as he comes across in his writing. And for some unexplainable reason I do feel like I owe it to him because he is friends with the family. But in good news - he has replied to me! And he seems to take taken it really well. He said:

"I absolutely agree with you and that is why I am pleased you are on board and even more pleased that you can tell me straight what you think. I love what you have done so far. I do want the girls to stand out and be funny. Hopefully really funny. Not as a joke themselves but they can mix it and stand out. I didn't give them enough adventure so was hoping to make their personality stand out. I bow sincerely to your grater knowledge on this matter. I think you have zoned in on an important matter here. Maybe you can turn this around and they express something on casual stereotypes. I'm willing to try."

Which makes me feel like I did the right thing, and I'm pleased that he's open to my ideas!

It makes it sound like he knows that he is out of his depth writing female characters and thinks an english grad (not an author or professional editor or literary critic) being paid (probably peanuts) to edit is up to the job of turning his "efforts" into a proper book.

I'd tell him that you are not interest in co-authoring novels, and that if you were it would not be on a project like his one.

[MrsSquirrel]

I also agree with pp, get out and move on with your life.

The fact that he would even imagine a scene where a teacher gets aroused and masturbates over a female pupil tells you exactly what kind of person he is. Never mind all the other sexist bullshit.

You are under no obligation to this man, walk away.

[ConcreteUnderpants]

Well done!!
Difficult with a friend of the family, so even more well done.

Have to say before you posted it, I could almost feel a grubby little completely irrelevant lesbian scene coming on.
Maybe I’m psychic or maybe just worn down and used to these creepy misogynistic types.

[ItsANiceDayForAFeministRant]

Oops yes name change fail 😂 yes, I would describe the men in my personal life as feminists, I'm picky about who I spend time with! And quite a recluse so fortunately for me, I'm not around men like this one much.

@RedDogsBeg you're right, I've never noticed how easy I am to win over!! This has definitely opened my eyes. I think I weirdly feel grateful, because I wasn't expecting him to listen or take on board what I said, so I was pleasantly surprised by his response. I am aware that this is ridiculous!

Thank you everyone for your responses, I feel justified and empowered! It's the first time I have properly stood up for myself in this kind of situation, and I'll be sure to keep it up! Luckily there is only two more days left to work on it, so I will finish what we agreed on.

He has mentioned in the past that he wants to do a trilogy, but his editor sure as shit isn't going to be me!

[Oilofolives]

I don’t know how much he is paying you but I would stop now. If you were self employed/freelance anything you would have already run a mile from this client.

He doesn’t respect women (see the book) so I don’t know why you think he respects you.

His response isn’t that he respects you -it’s that he’s happy that he’s got you on board, and possibly that he can hook you on for longer. He’s not interested in professional boundaries (the job is evolving from editing to writing and he is interested in you adding to the sex scenes).

What you have done re message is great: well done for putting your foot down. But you are still stuck dealing with someone who is well across professional lines. If he hasn’t already paid, I bet it won’t be forthcoming quickly/ easily/ unless you promise to spend more time on this. You don’t owe him anything - it’s a job not a favour.

[ItsANiceDayForAFeministRant]

@Oilofolives thank you for the advice. He has already paid me, so I will do carry on editing for him until Saturday when he is taking it to his festival thing. I've already told him that I won't be adding to the scenes, and that I am just correcting spelling and checking the grammar. As he has already paid I think it's only fair that I finish the job! But I will use this as a lesson for the future, ask to read first and definitely stand up for myself more! It feels great.