Political lesbianism /*choosing* to be a lesbian

[SoulofanAggron]

Have any of you ever decided to become a lesbian for political reasons? How successful were you?

[NonnyMouse1337]

From an evolutionary biology standpoint, it makes absolutely perfect sense. If a community ends up with a disproportionately small number of men due to war, disaster or disease then it can still ‘survive’ if children are raised successfully. That is most likely to happen if, in the absence of men, women form strong and stable bonds with other women.

It was a theory I heard from Bret Weinstein.

But 'political lesbianism' isn't the result of a region suffering war and decimation, with most of the male population gone and the women forging connections for survival. Species can engage in atypical behaviour as a survival mechanism. I guess that would also raise the question 'is it a choice if you are doing it to give your offspring the best chance of survival'?

[DidoLamenting]

@TheRealMcKenna

Political lesbianism certainly is a thing and seemed quite the rage back in the day. I think it's such a bizarre concept. How can you 'choose' who you are sexually attracted to? And why would you want to force yourself? How would the other person feel knowing your attraction to them was manufactured or ideologically based rather than because you were naturally drawn to them?

From an evolutionary biology standpoint, it makes absolutely perfect sense. If a community ends up with a disproportionately small number of men due to war, disaster or disease then it can still ‘survive’ if children are raised successfully. That is most likely to happen if, in the absence of men, women form strong and stable bonds with other women.

It was a theory I heard from Bret Weinstein.

What you are describing bears no resemblance at all to political lesbianism.

[Elsiebear90]

Imo the only women who can “choose” to be lesbians are bisexual women. You cannot choose who you are sexually attracted to, as a lesbian I very much tried to force myself to be attracted to men when I was younger and it literally is impossible.

I think as bisexuals (like Cynthia Nixon) they are under the assumption we can make a choice, without realising in fact that the only reason they can decide to be gay or straight is because they’re bisexual, whether they acknowledge that or not (she doesn’t to appear to).

[NonnyMouse1337]

Our definition of a political lesbian is a woman-identified woman who does not fuck men. It does not mean compulsory sexual activity with women.

What is a woman-identified woman?!

I can now see how these types of feminism played their part in paving the way for Queer theory and the craziness that comes with it. If sexuality is a choice, something that you can identify into and adopt for all sorts of reasons, you have opened the can of worms to allow individuals to 'become a lesbian' or 'become a gay man'. And unsurprising that heterosexual men will use such notions to their advantage because if attraction to biological sex is irrelevant to the label of sexuality, then it's up for grabs for anyone who wants to claim it as an 'identity' rather than an objective description.

[borntobequiet]

I don’t think you have to be conventionally same sex attracted or bisexual to enjoy sexual encounters with the same sex. You just have to enjoy sexual encounters. I had such experiences when younger and never considered myself either lesbian or bi (had I even heard the term bisexual? Possibly.). Mind you, those were more liberated times, I suppose.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I'm not sure about this, and may not put it well, but my perception re bisexuality is that while many heterosexual men are personally repulsed by the idea of having sex with a man, the same doesn't apply nearly so much to women - are functionally heterosexual women quite likely to find the idea of intimacy with a woman erotic, for instance?

If that's broadly true I can see how if some women prefer for non-sexual reasons to associate and form emotional relationships with women rather than men, then I can see how they could choose to be functionally lesbian. They'd still be bisexual - their inherent sexuality might mean they were instinctively more attracted to men than women - but their behaviour would be indistinguishable from a single-sex attracted true lesbian.

No idea if any of that makes sense.

[testing987654321]

Makes sense to me Errol, that's what I would understand by a political lesbian, someone who would be more likely to have been in a straight relationship but has chosen to have relationships with women. It doesn't mean they'd be faking attraction to women, that wouldn't work long-term.

[DidoLamenting]

I'm not sure about this, and may not put it well, but my perception re bisexuality is that while many heterosexual men are personally repulsed by the idea of having sex with a man, the same doesn't apply nearly so much to women - are functionally heterosexual women quite likely to find the idea of intimacy with a woman erotic, for instance?

Not me. I find the thought of having sex with a woman absolutely repulsive.

[DidoLamenting]

Our definition of a political lesbian is a woman-identified woman who does not fuck men. It does not mean compulsory sexual activity with women

What is a woman-identified woman?

That puzzled me too- given the quote is Sheila Jeffreys from the late 70s

[Cabinfever10]

This is the sort of bs that led to conversion therapy that is rampant in the US where homosexuality is a choice but obesity is an illness
My dd has had this sort of crap thrown at her by every man who has tried to bully her into relationships with them because "she just needs to fuck a real man to make her straight " and now from trans women who claim that she is transphobic for not dating them because "lesbianism is same gender attraction and she should accept that they have penises"
Both of these premises are abusive and male centered.
Whilst most women who claim to choose to be lesbian are in fact bisexual. I've often wondered if they realise the harm that they have caused to actual lesbians by being unable to accept their bisexuality.
The fact that in 2020 this crap is still being pushed onto women is dangerous and offensive and I stand by by previous statement.
Nobody chooses to be a lesbian they are or aren't.
Equally just because I am straight doesn't mean that I can't be a feminist ffs

[ChocolateCrackles]

I have real issues with lesbianism being defined in relation to men, however it supposedly comes about.

[testing987654321]

In that case I would say a political lesbian is a bisexual woman who has chosen to only have relationships with women.

I don't see what that has got to do with men who try to bully women into relationships.

It's not as though those kind of arseholes are interested in what women think.

[movingmuddle]

I think the "born this way" rhetoric is political, rather than a description of reality.

This is the sort of bs that led to conversion therapy that is rampant in the US where homosexuality is a choice but obesity is an illness

And, this is exactly why. So many men don't respect women's boundaries. So, if a woman says she's a lesbian, they think they can persuade her to accept men.

Let me ask you this. If we lived in a world where a woman said she was a lesbian and men's typical response was "cool, I'll not consider you a potential sexual partner then. Go well." then - would we need the concept "born this way?"

"Born this way" is a useful defence against creeps and misogynists, etc. Doesn't mean it's true though, just that it's expedient.

In my opinion, sexuality is more complex that that. Some people are so thoroughly lesbian/gay or straight that yes, saying they were born that way is a reasonable description. Many women describe this as their experience. But I believe most of us are basically bisexual but subject to intense conditioning. We're brought up in a society that protrays heterosexuality as the norm and punished people who deviate from that.

It may be true to say that women who decide they're lesbian may always have been bisexual really, but is it useful? If a woman hits 40 and decides, actually she much prefers being with women and has no interest in men any more, then that's very different in my opinion to a woman who calls herself bisexual and is actively interested in both women and men. What about the idea of "compulsory hetorosexuality"? That a woman who much prefers women has been conditioned all her life to be a compliant wife to a man, but then discovers her sexual attraction to women. how does "born this way" help her?

I've never heard a compelling reason for the a woman who exclusively dates women but who has a past that includes dating men, to call herself bisexual. I find the whole idea of the validation of "gold star" lesbian makes me uncomfortable - what about women who were raped, or indeed who experimented with their sexuality before deciding they were only interested in women? If a woman exclusively dates women then why wouldn't that be enough? What does it matter what her past was?

I think the problem is the implicit idea that if we were born with our sexuality, it makes it more real or more valid. But I think a woman's boundaries should be enough. And I worry that that if we rely on "born this way" we're kind-of complicit in the idea that our boundaries aren't enough, that we need a biological reason to back them up. Why can't women just say - I only want to have sex with women - and this be respected as her business?

I do understand this is an emotive topic though.

[Whatisthisfuckery]

Hm, my spidey senses are tingling. A post on FWR about political lesbians, in which the OP says political lesbians are appropriating the word lesbian.

I think I shall just say that whatever my feelings about political lesbianism, and I do know a few; only females can be lesbians, political or otherwise, so if there is a big gocha about if straight or bi women can be lesbians then so can men coming up, then it can fuck right off.

I can shag as many political lesbians, heterosexual or bisexual women as I like, I’m still a lesbian. What that makes those women is up to their own consciences. Any man who calls himself a lesbian and uses the idea of transphobia to coerce lesbians into bed is a rapey bastard and can fuck off.

[movingmuddle]

"Born this way" is a useful defence against creeps and misogynists, etc. Doesn't mean it's true though, just that it's expedient. Oh, and also against religious extremists.

[ErrolTheDragon]

@ChocolateCrackles

I have real issues with lesbianism being defined in relation to men, however it supposedly comes about.

The only relevance of men to lesbianism is that they're explicitly irrelevant, surely?

[SoulofanAggron]

If sexuality is a choice, something that you can identify into and adopt for all sorts of reasons, you have opened the can of worms to allow individuals to 'become a lesbian' or 'become a gay man'. And unsurprising that heterosexual men will use such notions to their advantage

@NonnyMouse1337 Transwomen/AGPs don't tend to claim they're choosing to be lesbians, they use a 'born this way' narrative.

I don’t think you have to be conventionally same sex attracted or bisexual to enjoy sexual encounters with the same sex. You just have to enjoy sexual encounters.

@borntobequiet I agree, like there are quite a lot of 'men who have sex with men' who still identify as straight, they just like sex and it's easier to find a man who's up for it, by going to certain venues etc.

What is a woman-identified woman?

A Woman-identified-woman as I understand it is one who identifies with the cause of women's liberation and with women as a sex. They do not identify with the oppressor. They put women at the centre of their lives. The phrase seems to have been associated with lesbianism. lgbt.wikia.org/wiki/The_Woman-Identified_Woman It was acknowledging lesbians' importance in the Women's Liberation Movement. I suppose even the statement 'a political lesbian is a woman-identified-woman' is asserting that straight women can be woman-identified, or lesbian.

The problem the Revolutionary Feminists were finding was they could spend a lot of their time doing stuff for women's liberation, going to meetings etc, then they were going home to a man.

It was like their personal life didn't match their political beliefs; they were still with the ruling sexual class in their private life, a fair chunk of their time.

So that's why they decided to not be romantically involved with men anymore, in a revolution against their assigned role and as a sign of their commitment to women's liberation.

I can imagine that some were so into women as a class, that it could spill over into sexual expression.

I wouldn't want to call a political lesbian bisexual, as they have just as much right to their own sexual identity as anyone else. To tell them they're not what they say they are reminds me of when people use to deny bisexual people's description of themselves. I get what you all mean, though.

Sexuality in one respect is maybe a continuum between straight and gay and some women might find it easier to devote themselves to women in their personal lives than others.

The other part of it is the idea that at least some of our sexuality is conditioned. 'Compulsory heterosexuality,' all the social conditioning to be with a man, princes in fairy tales etc etc mean there are a lot of supposed straight women that if they were free of this cultural indoctrination might find they are lesbian.

It's likely, IMHO that there is both a socially conditioned and an innate aspect to our sexuality/romantic identity.

I find it fascinating that someone could take their politics to such an extreme. It's arguably a bit like a cult.

As a bi woman, I tried being lesbian when I was 24 after some bad experiences with men, but it didn't work - it's easy to fall back into being with men, somehow. Almost 20 years on it's probably even harder. I did have a girlfriend last year who was very understanding of my not being very experienced etc.

I would keep an eye out for any sense of 'tying myself in knots' such as I felt when I tried to be a fundamentalist Christian, as I don't think that's healthy.

The other thing I want to give up is BDSM/being a submissive, because for me personally it was too connected with my tendency to like relationships where there's an imbalance of power in other ways. Adding to that in the bedroom can only make it worse.

[SerendipitousDreams]

As a life long lesbian, I can absolutely say I was born this way it's very much an innate part of me. It isn't rhetoric but fact. My partner also feels this way. In fact all the lesbians I have known have all said the same thing, it's innate. We have no choice in our same sex attraction and our sexuality really isn't complex at all.

Now that's not to say that there aren't women who don't say their sexuality is complex because there are, I know many women who will say this but in each case they have been bisexual / pansexual women.

[risefromyourgrave]

I could quite happily live my whole life with a female, but I am not sexually attracted to women, therefore it would be a sexless ‘partnership’ and certainly not a lesbian relationship.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

As far as I understand it, political lesbianism isn't necessarily sexual; it's more of a decision to centre women in your life socially, intellectually, emotionally, and practically (i.e. choosing to live exclusively with women, sometimes in groups, and sharing childcare and resources)

Yes, this was what it was about. I think it was popularised by Adrienne Rich. It was an experimental concept when second-wave feminism was very new and has nothing to do with conversion therapy and so on.

I think it paralleled or was replaced by 'womyn-centredness' (which has mostly coloured by own activism for the last 30 years and which also segues with GC feminism).

[Beamur]

I think you have to consider this in the context of when it was coined, it was a political act of rejecting heterosexuality.
In present day terms we're seeing such widespread appropriation of terms around womanhood that this now seems a bit suss. I daresay the women who chose this path knew they were not the same as their lesbian friends, maybe some were actually bisexual or maybe some of these relationships were not physical.
I very much doubt it would be used as a phrase now, but it reads to me as a gesture of solidarity not denial or land grab. How you would describe this would be dependent on the words in use and understood meaning at the time.

[SoulofanAggron]

I daresay the women who chose this path knew they were not the same as their lesbian friends, maybe some were actually bisexual or maybe some of these relationships were not physical.

I imagine at least some straight women did try and have romantic/sexual relationships with women as a result of their feminism. Maybe the 'recidivism rate' back to heterosexuality was quite high.

As a life long lesbian, I can absolutely say I was born this way it's very much an innate part of me. It isn't rhetoric but fact. My partner also feels this way. In fact all the lesbians I have known have all said the same thing, it's innate. We have no choice in our same sex attraction

In Sheila Jeffrey's latest book she says this way of seeing it wasn't always this common. In the 60s/70s most women described it as a choice, in the 80s it was 50/50, and nowadays it's mostly 'born this way.' I don't know how much that's true.

But I think these are fascinating ideas and it's a real shame it's been left out of a lot of books on the history of feminism, as has a lot of the lesbian involvement in the movement.

it reads to me as a gesture of solidarity

@Beamur Yep. Maybe people wouldn't call it 'political lesbianism' now, but they might describe themselves as 'radical lesbian feminist' and some of those might be previously straight women deciding to be gay as a result of their radical feminism. Most 'radical lesbian feminists' might be women who've long identified as lesbians, though.

[ErrolTheDragon]

My perception (which may be wrong) was that in that era (50 years ago!) feminists might have avoided the term 'bisexual' as it was more associated with 'promiscuous' men who'd shag anyone.

[Beamur]

Helen Joyce's book - Difficult Women, does talk about this. The chapter I've literally just read!

[Deliriumoftheendless]

@Beamur

I think you have to consider this in the context of when it was coined, it was a political act of rejecting heterosexuality.
In present day terms we're seeing such widespread appropriation of terms around womanhood that this now seems a bit suss. I daresay the women who chose this path knew they were not the same as their lesbian friends, maybe some were actually bisexual or maybe some of these relationships were not physical.
I very much doubt it would be used as a phrase now, but it reads to me as a gesture of solidarity not denial or land grab. How you would describe this would be dependent on the words in use and understood meaning at the time.

I think there’s some thing in this.

I read a bit about Political Lesbianism back in the 90s at uni. It definitely came from a time before men identifying as lesbians on the scale we have now and seemed to me (at least) to be a political statement from women who rejected men as sexual partners for whatever reason they felt they needed to. As far as I know many of them were not involved with women sexually (or experimented without looking into bisexuality) it was purely a rejection of having relationships with men. Some of those women may have discovered they were actually attracted to women, I don’t know. It was a very different time. I don’t think it had anything to do with transwomen (who back then would have been classed as transsexual and more often attracted to males) or women flirting with lesbianism in the mould of Tatu. I understood it to be an act of solidarity with women in a way that probably makes no sense in today’s world. But I have never met anyone who describes themselves this way so I can only go on articles written in the 1970s. I don’t think it was about appropriation- I think back then rejecting men as sexual partners would be more akin to what we might now call being asexual. It was definitely a political statement. I don’t think it could ever exist nowadays.