Who the hell are we supposed to vote for in the Labour leadership?

[Polynerd]

I was really enthusiastic about voting for Lisa Nandy before she took this ridiculously authoritarian stance on the trans issue. But all the others seem to have signed similar pledges. Should I just not vote?

[DuLANGMondeFOREVER]

Holy fuck. When the candidate that won’t even say the word ‘woman’ is the best option for women, we are truly fucked.

[teawamutu]

I'm personally gutted, as a feminist, that in an election where the vast majority of candidates are female, I have to choose the male as the least worst option for defending women's rights.

[xxyzz]

DuLANGMondeFOREVER - you do you, but be aware in voting for Burgon, you are voting for one of the most 'out' anti-Semites there is.

I know this is a feminist board not an anti-racism one, but just want to point that out.

[mastertomsmum]

Whilst acknowledging this is not likely to go down well on this thread, I would like to say as a woman, a feminist and a supporter of human rights Lisa Nandy’s speech transcribed above is brave sensible and true.

Starmer is more experienced and he’s more or less sitting on the fence on this issue.

Rebecca Long Bailey’s words show she’s not ready to lead in comparison to the other 2.

As a feminist I could never take a stance that’s hostile towards trans women. As a supporter of human rights I could not take a hostile stance towards trans people.

I accept that other feminists may hold different views. Those views are extensively represented on this thread so I just wanted to politely state an alternative view.

[DuLANGMondeFOREVER]

be aware in voting for Burgon, you are voting for one of the most 'out' anti-Semites there is.

Happy to read any evidence you could point me towards!

[Cwenthryth]

I respect you hold your own views, mastertom, but I don’t find your post particularly polite, insinuating as it does that those of us wishing to uphold single sex protections under the Equality Act are hostile and unsupporting of human rights. That could be perceived as pretty offensive, really.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

As a feminist I could never take a stance that’s hostile towards trans women. As a supporter of human rights I could not take a hostile stance towards trans people.

I guess it depends on if you frame believing in rights for female people, or meeting the needs of female people as being intrinsically hostile to trans people.

Because as a supporter of human rights I could never take a stance that disadvantages any one group or denies their needs or removes their identity and rights to favour another group. It doesn't matter who either group is, I believe in equality and rights full stop because I think it's morally and ethically wrong to do otherwise. And because history is full of human rights disasters where one group was favoured at another's cost, and the groups just switched around depending on current fashion. I don't believe in a kind of 'equality' where you just have to hope like hell you stay in one of the currently favoured groups to be allowed equal rights.

I also don't believe in the special pet status implied when people talk about any one group as needing prioritising and protection above all others. I find it patronising and infantilising, and not respectful. It disempowers that group and most minority groups would be angry about being cast in that way. Disabled people, women, we've fought like hell not to be treated like very special children and to be seen as just like everyone else on an equal level of expectations.

Politely stating an alternative view. YMMV.

[mastertomsmum]

Cwenthryth - my post does not do that. It offers my personal interpretation of feminism, human rights and womanhood. It does not criticise those who hold different views. We all have a right to hold our own views. Those holding views similar to mine are underrepresented on this thread. That’s fine, that’s democracy/freedom of speech.

[DuLANGMondeFOREVER]

Feminism has to centre female people, otherwise it’s intersectionalism.

[Cwenthryth]

So you don’t think that upholding women’s sex-based rights under the equality act is a hostile stance then? Why mention hostility at all, if you weren’t needing to distance yourself as not hostile from ‘other feminists’ you do consider hostile?

My understanding of your post may not have been what you intended, but it is how it read to me.

[xxyzz]

DuLANG -

Burgon is very much a Corbyn loyalist so I suppose it partly depends how much you want the Corbyn continuity project.

Re anti-Semitism, he is one of only 2 Deputy or Leadership candidates who've refused to support the Board of Deputies' pledges on tackling anti-Semitism in Labour, called Zionism (ie Jewish self-determination) 'the enemy of peace' and then lied repeatedly about it when challenged (till the video of him saying it came out and he had to back pedal), appointed Huda Elmi as the BAME coordinator for his Deputy Leadership campaign who has criticised the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism and called for the EHRC to be abolished for investigating Labour.

There are worse in Labour - but there are others better on this. Couldn't vote for him or trust personally - up to you.

[xxyzz]

Haven't provided links, sorry - but easy to google/Twitter search.

[mastertomsmum]

Cwenthryth you are speaking as you find using your own interpretation of how things read to you. Many others may share your view. Many will not. Some will share mine. It’s all freedom of speech.

I don’t think my views are especially strident and much calmer than many I’ve read today. Calm or not, strident or not let us all hold our own views and defend the right to express them.

[DuLANGMondeFOREVER]

Thanks XXYZZ - will google your suggestions before I got to hear him speak this week. Hopefully there will be time to really get into details as it’s a solo speaking event rather than a hustings.

[GCAcademic]

As a feminist I could never take a stance that’s hostile towards trans women

Sorry, what does feminism have to do with trans women? Feminism is for female people. Hence the etymology. It has nothing, hostile or otherwise, to do with trans women.

[mastertomsmum]

GCAcademic - I feel that trans women are women.

[DuLANGMondeFOREVER]

Do you feel that trans women are female?

Feminism is for female people.

[dianebrewster]

The three issues that are crucial for me are electability, antisemitism and self ID. The nuances of other differences between the candidates are relatively unimportant when faced with years of Tory rule. We need an effective opposition that shows it has the skills to govern.

For those reasons I'm going for Kier Starmer and Ian Murray. Labour has had some amazing female MPs, who would have been credible and effective PMs, but I don't see any of them in this race. And that really pisses me off.

[mastertomsmum]

DuLANGMondeFOREVER - well yes actually. I also think a man can be a feminist

[GCAcademic]

In what respect are trans women "female"? Do you believe they have changed sex? And, if so, how?

[DuLANGMondeFOREVER]

That wasn’t my question.

Feminism is FOR the benefit of female people. Men can support the aims of feminism, but it’s not for their benefit.

Do you ‘feel’ that trans women are female people, MasterTom?

[Michelleoftheresistance]

I feel that trans women are women

Can female people be transwomen?

Because if your answer is an indignant no, and that's insulting and offensive to transwomen, you may want to check your own double standards that privilege people born male over those born female.

And it may also show you that you know that people born female are in themselves a different class of people. And that you're avoiding admitting that that group of people have specific needs to do with being female that no other group of people share, which for equality society needs to meet. And the reason you're avoiding it?

Because it's a truth too upsetting to people born male. Again, you're feeding people born female under the bus to protect people born male, seeing them as intrinsically more important humans.

Good old fashioned sexism.

[DuLANGMondeFOREVER]

Sex is determined (in law) by genitals, gonads and gametes.

How can someone with male genitals, gonads and gametes be female?

[DuLANGMondeFOREVER]

Oh! And chromosomes. Forgot those!

How can anyone with male genitals, gonads, gametes AND chromosomes BE female?

[Cwenthryth]

Yes, I’m explaining how your words come across, of course that’s my interpretation . Maybe you don’t mind, but you said you were intending to be polite, and I was explaining that your post didn’t actually come across as polite to me. I didn’t make any comment about being calm or strident, so I’m not sure what you’re countering against with that paragraph.

I asked you some questions about your post - would you like to answer them? Do you think that upholding women’s sex-based rights under the equality act is a hostile stance? Why mention hostility at all, if you weren’t needing to distance yourself as not hostile from ‘other feminists’ you do consider hostile?

Just to be clear, I absolutely support your right to feel or believe that transwomen are women, and for you to act accordingly in your own life. I don’t think you should have the right to demand that everyone agree with you or share your beliefs, nor be legally compelled to act as if they do.