Who the hell are we supposed to vote for in the Labour leadership?

[Polynerd]

I was really enthusiastic about voting for Lisa Nandy before she took this ridiculously authoritarian stance on the trans issue. But all the others seem to have signed similar pledges. Should I just not vote?

[GiantKitten]

Maria Miller was the driver. Why was she so keen?
(She has swung the other way completely now.)

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/maria-miller-says-only-hostility-to-transgender-report-came-from-women-purporting-to-be-feminists-a6830406.html

[MarchDaffs]

Yeah, the whole GRC reform consultation was on their watch and we all know what the preferred outcome of that was. What part of that fiasco suggests they want to protect women's safe spaces?

[CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost]

Just remember, they were in power when it got this far.

[MarchDaffs]

They haven't seemed particularly keen on it in their recent governments. I don't trust them either.

[CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost]

I really believe that the Tories are the only party who know what a woman is and will allow us to keep our safe spaces.

And in all honesty it won't be like that forever, time is sadly running out.

[GeordieTerf]

I really believe that the Tories are the only party who know what a woman is and will allow us to keep our safe spaces.

[MrsKneller]

All the candidates despise women. All of them are a real threat - through their policies - to the dignity and safety of women and girls. If you vote for any of them, it makes you complicit in their misogyny. I know that’s harsh.
Labour is no place for women now.

[mastertomsmum]

And so was ‘master’

[Michelleoftheresistance]

If that was to me, that was a typo, master

[Floisme]

I can see no discussion on this thread about human rights master so I am really not sure why you have raised this on here.

The questions are around whether transwomen are entitled to those rights and spaces reserved specifically for women and girls, and how this impacts on females.

[mastertomsmum]

Am I being referred to as ‘masters’?

[reginafelangee]

Keir and Lisa will get my 1 and 2 but not decided which way round.

Ian Murray for Deputy. Might give some other preferences but not to anyone on the hard left.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

Then masters you agree that females who have different views to yours should be allowed to hold them in peace, and not face harassment and exclusion for them? And to have female only spaces reserved for those who need them?

[GCAcademic]

You can have your own views, yes. You don't get to have your own facts though. Those are objectively determined and based in material reality, not in feeling.

[mastertomsmum]

Like I said - as far as I am concerned we can all have our own views.

[Noooblerooble]

Oh dear

It's heartening at least to read all the comments. The vast majority of people really don't swallow this.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

In fact the failure of logic and intersectionality is quite interesting really.

Many different kinds of women are women, as we are often told. Black women are women, transwomen are women, disabled women are women etc etc.

Black women can meet and organise and have spaces such as groups etc reserved to respect and focus solely upon the issues specific to their experience. This is a Good Thing.

Transwomen as above, safe spaces etc, this is a Good Thing.

Disabled women, yes all as above.

Political groups of women, yes all as above, and policing their boundaries and expelling other women who don't fit those boundaries, apparently fine and a Good Thing.

Female women...…….. absolutely NO to them having any space or group or anything at all, that's a Bad Thing and damaging to transwomen.

Now why is that?

Why is the idea of female people having any spaces of their own perceived so hostile and hateful when all other groups of women this is considered perfectly normal and a way to meet the particular needs of that focused group?

[Cwenthryth]

So ‘your feminism’ dictates that upholding women’s sex-based rights is hostile....okaaaaaay. Yeah that’s not what the rest of us mean by feminism.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

If TW are welcomed into every space without exception where females are, that's very nice for the TW. It sounds lovely and inclusive.

But what are you going to do with the females who can no longer use any space because there is no space left where people born male are not? Where's the kindness?

[Michelleoftheresistance]

If it could be accepted in law that

• female is a separate, fixed thing in its own right, and female people are a unique class with needs specific to being female that need to be met for equality in society
  
  
• some provision must be reserved that is female only in order to ensure female needs are met alongside a wider range of provisions
  
  there would be no problem.

[DuLANGMondeFOREVER]

Your feminism is completely incoherent.

Female isn’t an identity, it’s a biological sex class.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

I absolutely support your right to feel or believe .....and for you to act accordingly in your own life

Key point really.

Freedom of belief. Some will refuse to be convinced one way, others will refuse to be convinced the other way. Like any other issue in the UK, differences of belief live alongside each other and that's fine .

Why are we arguing?

Because those with one belief are trying to legally compel others to conform to their belief, submit their rights in law, accept subordinate status and inequality, accept compelled speech and forced lying, and to exclude some female people from access to necessary services, as well as criminalising and punishing those who resist.

Please someone explain to me the virtue of that? Because that's the only reason I'm arguing here and everywhere else I can think of. This is not live and let live. This is not about equal respect. This is about dominance, submission and oppression, with submission framed as virtue.

And excuse me but fuck that, because I'm not a masochist.

[mastertomsmum]

Trans women are women and those identifying as female are female/women. Anyone can be a feminist as in a supporter of women’s rights/women etc.

Don’t want to argue. Wasn’t impolite.

This issue is important and my feminism would not allow me to say trans women aren’t welcome to be where other women are. I do think saying they can’t is taking a hostile stance. But I also believe we can all have our own views and must accept how others see them. So, you might think my stance is whatever you wish to describe it as.

[PermanentTemporary]

It's interesting that YC is not standing. Has she been promised the Treasury by KS for example?

[GCAcademic]

I'm disappointed Yvette Cooper didn't stand for the leadership. But perhaps she is sitting this one out in the hope that the party will get the lunacy out of its system in the next few years.