Depression and suicide attempts in women

[Dyrne]

Firstly, I absolutely want to stress that I fully support the current conversation and momentum about mental health for men - tackling the toxic masculinity and “man up” culture is so important; and I would never want to imply that conversation isn’t important. (Hence me starting my own thread in feminism chat; I would never want to derail an important campaign with “well, actually...”).

Having said all that, I see a lot of talk about how “more men commit suicide than women”. While I completely agree that is an important fact and very useful to get the conversation going and getting men to open up; something often gets left out of these statistics - although men have more successful suicide attempts; women actually attempt suicide more often than men.

Is there a gap here in addressing womens’ mental health?

I think there is a lot behind this - society’s expectation of performing femininity: pressure for women to have a successful career while still being expected to do the bulk of the childcare/housework; having to be seen to “have it all” and do it easily and without complaint.

There is also the question of whether women may find it more difficult in getting taken seriously at the doctor’s office (not sure on stats for mental health; but difficulty accessing treatment for physical health problems is well documented).

Does anyone have any links/studies that have looked into this?

[FormerMediocreMale]

Im not sure how accurate statistics would be on this. If someone attempts suicide but is not successful, its hardly something they are likely to tell people - partly because they coukd be accused of attention seeking etc.

[bd67th]

its hardly something they are likely to tell people

I think the attempt stats are based on hospital admissions. I talk about mine a lot but then I think that the benefit of widespread mental health awareness is worth the risk that some judgey twat I didn't want to be around anyway will call me names.

[Pebble21uk]

I can only speak from a personal persepctive. I have lost two female friends to suicide in the last 5 months. One a very close friend indeed.

I have never had any experience of suicide in my life on any level before. These were both women in their 40s, who were outwardly very successful, professional, intelligent etc etc.

I don't want to go into any details, but they used different methods and there are very differing backstories etc. But from what I have read on here I just have two comments to make.

Firstly women in their 40s often have children who are teenagers or young adults. Children are 'flying the nest' and perhaps some women don't feel as needed as they were when their children were young. As such perhaps there isn't the same feeling of need to be there for the children as before / the same deterrent - I don't know.

Secondly somone mentioned how drug availability has been tightened up. Yes they have by GPs / shops selling over the counter meds etc. But don't forget we now have the internet where almost any drug is available to anyone online.

Both my friends were let down terribly by mental health services. Both were very much known to them. Women can be great communicators. Intelligent women can make very strong defences for themselves to professionals that they are okay when they are not.

I have learnt more about both suicide and mental health services in the last few months that I would ever wish to know. They are not effective.

[TeiTetua]

I haven't got depression myself, but a family member has, and we both read the late Sally Brampton's book about experiencing it, "Shoot the Damn Dog" (that's a reference to the old nickname for depression, "the black dog"). It's witty and informative, doesn't minimize anyone's problems, generally a good read. She said in the book that some "depressants" (she liked that term) are lucky enough to respond to drugs, as my relative does, but nothing worked for Sally Brampton. A few years ago she killed herself by putting stones in the pockets of her coat, and walking into the sea. I wondered if being a literate person, she was drawn to using the same method as Virginia Woolf.

And, on another feminist board (now gone) I learned about Jane Callaghan, a professor in mental health who suffers from depression herself. If anyone wanted to take a feminist approach to the subject, she'd be someone to talk to. Here's a short article she wrote:
janeemcallaghan.wordpress.com/2017/01/

[AnotherAdultHumanFemale]

We've clearly got a men's right's activist on this thread. Attacking the lived experience of a woman with depression and counselling showing absolutely zero empathy and shouting down my experience as somehow irrelevant, describing violent methods of suicide with zero sensitivity to the women here who have said they are suicide survivors or have family members who died by suicide, and shouting down everyone who points out women attempt suicide more than men.

It's a shame to see this on a thread about depression and suicide of all places but I guess it's the feminist forum so they can't help themselves.

[StockTakeFucks]

I wonder if this "attention seeking" rhetoric is another reason why women who have committed suicide are more likely (than men) to have attempted it before.

[AnotherAdultHumanFemale]

The whole labelling it as 'attention seeking' gives me a terrible feeling of rage inside. It's yet more minimising of women's pain, victim blaming and general cruelty.

[BigChocFrenzy]

reported

[Singletomingle]

I've been watching this thread and really its shocking that anyone is trying to point score over who suffers most from mental illness and ultimately suicide. Both sexes die from suicide in truly awful numbers and need help and support for whatever reason the form of this does differ between women and men and I may get flamed for this but if you're trying to point score òver who has it worst or needs help the most then you are part of the problem.

[StockTakeFucks]

Yeah,as a woman I won't ever apologise for making women and girls my priority.


And this is the feminist board, and the thread title is "suicide and depression in WOMEN".

You want,need or support something else that's fair enough. There are ample opportunities for discussion on other threads and you can even make yourself.

As soon as this thread starts discussing the actual issue it's either whataboutery or kumbaya my lord love everyone.


WOMEN. It's not rocket science.

[AnotherAdultHumanFemale]

I find it disappointing that anyone could describe what has happened here as 'point scoring.' The thread was meant to be a discussion about how women attempt suicide more than men, and how that statistic tends not to be reported.

Nobody is saying that mental health services for men don't need to be improved, because clearly they do. Mental health services need to be improved for everyone, huge amounts of people are currently suffering due to underfunded mental health services in the UK at least.

But this is a feminist forum, and the OP wanted a discussion about women and suicide. We are allowed to centre women in our feminism. If you wish to discuss mental health services for men and male suicide, there is nothing stopping you from starting a thread on this topic in another forum, as StockTakeFucks has said above.

[Singletomingle]

There have been posts on here that have been point scoring for want of a better word in both directions which I find disgusting on such a topic. By all means have this thread any positive discussion on mental health is great and anyone who tries to support someone in this position or has gone through such issues is a hero and deserves a huge pat on the back in my book.

[Mamello]

Many more women are admitted to hospital with self harm but this is often not called attempted suicide because the intention is not always clear. Similarly not all suicide is recorded as such because the intentionality of the act is not always clear and this is especially true for things like overdose etc. So some women's suicide may not be recorded as such. Men do appear to often choose more violent methods which are less ambiguous. And I do think because of the ambiguity women who harm themselves, without it being fatal, are not taken as seriously as they should be.

[timshelthechoice]

That term 'personality disorder' is just awful!

[bd67th]

if you're trying to point score òver who has it worst or needs help the most

That's what you took away from this thread? Really? You read my earlier post about not erasing difference and interpreted that, and other posts by PP of that ilk, as "point scoring"? FOTTOSOFATFOSM

[bd67th]

But don't forget we now have the internet where almost any drug is available to anyone online.

The shipping delay has a protective effect in those cases. If I can walk to my pharmacist and buy a fatal dose of something inside ten minutes, I'm at much greater risk than if I have to order online and have it arrive two days later. Suicide is impulse behaviour, remember.

[StockTakeFucks]

We're just not being nice enough are we?

[Dyrne]

Wow, I bent over backwards in my OP to make clear I wasn’t trying to ‘one-up’ anything. I didn’t barge my way into a male suicide post going “but what about the Women?!?”

I started a post in the feminism topic centre-ing women. Should have known that was clearly unacceptable...

Thank you to all those who have contributed their own experiences and thoughts, there’s definitely good for thought here. Sorry I haven’t got as involved, this topic hits home for me for various reasons so it’s difficult to wade in sometimes.

I absolutely agree that mental health support and provision is crap for both sexes; but I completely disagree with the suggestion from some that we need to think more generally. To me, “equality” doesn’t necessarily mean “treating the sexes exactly the same”. Clearly the issues around mental health and suicide are complex and different between the sexes, so need different strategies to drive improvement for ALL.

[StockTakeFucks]

I absolutely agree that mental health support and provision is crap for both sexes;

This. They're absolutely crap for everyone,including children. They're inadequate, underfunded, overworked and unable to cope. They operate on a system of pissing on the oven fire when there's a blaze outside the door.

The rhetoric of race to the bottom(I coped with x,y,z and I'm fineee), "attention seeking" and "if you really wanted to kill yourself ,you'd just do it" isn't helping.

Trying to shut up discussion about a particular group with "what about the..." isn't helping.

The naive stance of "just get help/go to therapy/take meds" like it's a universal ,accurate,accessible and direct fix isn't helping.

Dismissing the fact that many more women than men try to kill themselves because they haven't "succeeded " isn't helping.

[Singletomingle]

Actually I took a lot from the thread and reading back most of the negativity stems from 1 poster and responses to them. As I said any discussion on suicide and mental health is valuable. My personal opinion is that while different approaches are needed in terms of reaching those in need there should be little difference in how both sexes are treated when they do reach out. Apolgies for intruding on a feminism thread I genuinely was only here to see a different view of something close to my heart.

[Lacebug]

Well done, Singletomingle for actually taking a lot from this thread and thanks awfully for sharing your personal opinion. Do you have any other insights to share?

[FormerMediocreMale]

In my teens i attempted suicide 3 times but only once was hospitalised, so other 2 unrecorded attempts, so not on any stats. Personally i would say having children is a huge detertent. Even when depressed it is what would happen to my children that has made a big difference. Also i have more/better coping strategies.

Another thing having moved around a bit is that the level of care re MH varies a lot place to place. I found rural cambridgeshire exceptional, CBT, mindfulness, counselling and timescale much better than elsewhere.

Another thing is whether a counsellor is available on site at the medical ptactice has made a big impact to time scale of support.

[Pebble21uk]

But don't forget we now have the internet where almost any drug is available to anyone online.

The shipping delay has a protective effect in those cases. If I can walk to my pharmacist and buy a fatal dose of something inside ten minutes, I'm at much greater risk than if I have to order online and have it arrive two days later. Suicide is impulse behaviour, remember.

Hmmm... try telling that to my dead friend. I beg to differ.

[bd67th]

But don't forget we now have the internet where almost any drug is available to anyone online.

The shipping delay has a protective effect in those cases. If I can walk to my pharmacist and buy a fatal dose of something inside ten minutes, I'm at much greater risk than if I have to order online and have it arrive two days later. Suicide is impulse behaviour, remember.

Hmmm... try telling that to my dead friend. I beg to differ.

We are talking about a class analysis. There will always be exceptional cases where the suicide is preplanned. The people who head off to Dignitas are examples of these exceptions. Your friend's case is an exception.

I am sorry for your loss.

[colouringinpro]

Fascinating thread. For me, thinking about the impact of taking my own life on my two already vulnerable dcs has kept me going.

C-ptsd is also playing a massive part in my mental health difficulties but this is not recognised or supported. Mental health support for me, my dcs and exh with bipolar has been criminally inadequate.