Depression and suicide attempts in women

[Dyrne]

Firstly, I absolutely want to stress that I fully support the current conversation and momentum about mental health for men - tackling the toxic masculinity and “man up” culture is so important; and I would never want to imply that conversation isn’t important. (Hence me starting my own thread in feminism chat; I would never want to derail an important campaign with “well, actually...”).

Having said all that, I see a lot of talk about how “more men commit suicide than women”. While I completely agree that is an important fact and very useful to get the conversation going and getting men to open up; something often gets left out of these statistics - although men have more successful suicide attempts; women actually attempt suicide more often than men.

Is there a gap here in addressing womens’ mental health?

I think there is a lot behind this - society’s expectation of performing femininity: pressure for women to have a successful career while still being expected to do the bulk of the childcare/housework; having to be seen to “have it all” and do it easily and without complaint.

There is also the question of whether women may find it more difficult in getting taken seriously at the doctor’s office (not sure on stats for mental health; but difficulty accessing treatment for physical health problems is well documented).

Does anyone have any links/studies that have looked into this?

[AngelasAshes]

To answer OPs question...yes there are loads of gaps in MH it’s wide for women and wider for men.

[AngelasAshes]

@AnotherAdultHumanFemale
“When you get counselling for depression nobody ever asks you if you've experienced abuse, including abuse in childhood and domestic abuse. ”

This is not accurate. It is more accurate that a woman goes in with depression, and upon being asked and admitting a history of abuse is labelled with EUPD or if lucky cPTSD and then put into a treatment cycle for unstable emotions or trauma while the depression is ignored.
Essentially, the fact she was abused is held against her and used as an excuse as to why she is not suffering from depression but a personality disorder or trauma caused hyper sensitivity

[MotherForkinShirtBalls]

There have been a couple of articles in the Irish Times in recent months about how the numbers of young women completing suicide in certain areas of Dublin is now equally men.

In late 2018 Ireland had the highest rate of suicide for girls in the EU.

From the last link below...

It is the first time, anywhere in the State, that women are taking their own lives in the same numbers as men.

“There is a new profile of women dying by suicide (early 20s to mid 30s),” an internal HSE memo to psychiatric teams in the Dublin South-Central community healthcare organisation (CHO) warned last month.

The women generally have “small primary school children, [aged] one-plus up to teenagers”, with backgrounds marked by poverty, early school leaving, homelessness, adverse childhood experiences and drug and substance misuse."

//Https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/irish-suicide-rate-for-girls-highest-in-eu-report-shows-1.3688028

www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/suicides-of-young-women-must-give-concern-mourners-told-1.3955090

www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/bereft-dublin-locality-pulls-together-in-wake-of-suicides-1.3965100?mode=amp#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/why-are-young-mothers-taking-their-own-lives-1.3533996
Some incredibly sad reading.

to all of you who have and are still struggling

[LightsInOtherPeoplesHouses]

yes there are loads of gaps in MH it’s wide for women and wider for men.

I'd disagree. It's probably a similar size for both, just the gaps are different.

And CAMHS send to be mainly gaps, given the thresholds are so high.

[AnotherAdultHumanFemale]

I said: “When you get counselling for depression nobody ever asks you if you've experienced abuse, including abuse in childhood and domestic abuse. ”

Angela's Ashes replied:

This is not accurate. It is more accurate that a woman goes in with depression, and upon being asked and admitting a history of abuse is labelled with EUPD or if lucky cPTSD and then put into a treatment cycle for unstable emotions or trauma while the depression is ignored.
Essentially, the fact she was abused is held against her and used as an excuse as to why she is not suffering from depression but a personality disorder or trauma caused hyper sensitivity.

It's very presumptuous of you to assume you know what happens in every woman's counselling session.

I was referring to my own personal experience. I had years of counselling for depression and anxiety. Not one therapist out of about 15 asked if I had ever been abused. It was only when I experienced domestic abuse that I was referred to a trauma specialist that I realised I had experienced abuse prior to my abusive relationship and was diagnosed with (C)PTSD.

I know many other abuse survivors with a similar experience to me. You may know the theory but what you describe does not happen in practice. It is a major failing point for women who are not getting the right support and treatment.

[Gingerkittykat]

@Whatisthisfuckery That BPD/EUPD label is, for me, a huge feminist issue. The fact that a huge number of women are diagnosed with it when they are suffering the after effects of trauma is utterly scandalous. It is indeed a dustbin diagnosis and should almost always be seen in the context of CPTSD which has only recently been recognised officially.

There have been a spate of around 6 male suicides in my town and surrounding area recently, including a young lad of 19 in my village who my kids were at school with who hanged himself. There have been two separate mens clubs set up in response, interestingly I talked to the organisers of one at the weekend and his thinking was that by sorting men out they would be indirectly helping women as men are the root of many problems in the family!

There has also been a mixed sex group set up, and it is pretty amazing peer support and about building relationships and connections in the community.

I do also believe there is a very real need for female only mental health support, and this need is not being met. I bet the community would not be nearly as sympathetic to the cause as they are to male suicide.

what about men

[AnotherAdultHumanFemale]

Agreed that BPD is a sexist diagnosis, most women diagnosed with BPD seem to have experienced trauma and also meet the criteria for CPTSD. It reminds me of how they used to say women were suffering from 'hysteria.'

Maybe one issue is that CPTSD is still not officially recognised whilst PTSD is.

[Goosefoot]

Whatisthisfuckery

My father has had a very similar experience to yours with mental health issues. He also has a diagnosis of bipolar, but I think in many cases MH diagnosis is a sort of educated guess. He did have a psychologist for a short time who suggested that he actually had BPD, which also seems to make sense. But in any case, his psychiatrist of many years has never had any real interest in getting to any kind of root of the problem, or made any attempt at any kind of actual therapy. It's all about the drugs, tweaking them, finding other drugs to manage the side-effects, sometimes making big changes.

It seems to be the norm in psychiatry since the newer drugs became avaialble.

[Goosefoot]

Strangely enough the "west" figures much much lower down the list.

I do't see why that's strange. I'm sure there are reasons for the suicide rates in those places as well, some may be the same, some not.

[Griefmonster]

As mentioned by a PP I strongly suspect a link between (peri)menopause and suicidal ideation. Would figure that other hormone fluctuations (pregnancy, maternity, period, hormonal birth control) could also be a factor for women at different ages and stages. I think this link is masked to a large extent by a number of societal factors. Too raw to go in to in more detail but i think much much more attention is needed on women presenting with depression when there are likely hormonal imbalances are at play. The symptom is treated as if all depression is the same. When in fact there could be a completely different treatment needed for these women (e.g. HRT).

More light on this please hive mind!

[Lacebug]

I thought it was a cry for help?

[LiveInAHidingPlace]

At university, most women I knew had attempted suicide at least once (including me).

For me, it was definitely the cognitive dissonance of the "you can do/be anything!!/we are all equal!!" rhetoric and realising that most men and many women looked down on women and saw them as less than men.

That kind of stuff really fucked me up for a long time. I thought I would be taken seriously and I just wasn't.

I realised all this in hindsight, at the time, I just thought I was a fuck up.

[WomanBornNotWorn]

There are massive spikes in divorce and suicide rates in women around the peri and post menopause age range.

[Gingerkittykat]

@Holowiwi What an ignorant statement. Suicide attempts should always be taken seriously.

[Lacebug]

@Gingerkittykat, I too was shocked by the sheer callousness and indifference of that statement but didn't like to say anything in case I had misinterpreted it.

I once shared a flat with a nurse (general not MH) who expressed the opinion that suicidal people should "just be allowed to get on with it." It horrified me at the time and still does now.

[WomanBornNotWorn]

Divorce statistics - 45-49 is the most common age for divorce

www.crispandco.com/site/divorce-statistics/

The suicide rate in women is highest 50-54:

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2017registrations

Just when women are suffering the peri and post meno symptoms. The links are clear.

[Gingerkittykat]

@Lacebug There is very poor understanding of suicide amongst a lot of people, including health professionals often leading to those who attempt suicide or self harm being treated terribly.

Sadly stories like this are not uncommon.

[StockTakeFucks]

So what's the outcome?

More women actually killing themselves just to prove they're serious about it?

Even if it was a cry for attention,what drives someone to that extreme? There are other ways that are less dangerous,painful and possibly fatal (you're relying on someone else to get there in time) to get attention.

Sadly, it is the only way sometimes to get help, and even then it's a lottery.

[clitherow]

There may be a very small minority of people who attempt suicide because they want attention, but I doubt that it is many.

For anyone who has ever truly experienced suicidal feelings, they know that it is rarely a one hundred per cent thing. Some part wants to live and some part doesn't. It may not be that the part that doesn't want to live even wants to die as such but feels that it can no longer go on living in an untenable inner or outer situation. Most suicide attempts are cries of despair from someone who doesn't necessarily want to die but feels that they can't go on living.

I think that people who have no actual knowledge of such things should refrain from unhelpful comments.

[TheInebriati]

The statistics speak for themselves, more men complete suicide therefore the focus is on getting them to open up, talk and seek help.

Generally women are more inclined to speak to someone if they are feeling down and this in turn should help them.

I just don't understand why it can't be neutral, just general health matters and provide awareness and support to everyone involved.

It can't be just neutral because men and women need a different approach the whole way through the system.
We don't have to do so much to encourage women to seek help and earlier, those resources should be focused on men.
Women are more likely to be lone parents than men, and are more likely to be survivors of DV. We need different kinds of support.

[AngelasAshes]

@WomanBornNotWorn
No, it’s not linked to menopause at all. The average age of suicide was 22-23 in 1993. It has increased yearly to current ages of 50-54.
Suicide is linked to generation....as in generation X.

[AngelasAshes]

It’s positively Victorian to think one’s womb and it’s hormones cause depression and suicide. If that were the case, mostly women would be dying instead of men.
It’s more likely the societal pressures we all live under.
Generation X (smallest generation) has been killing itself off more than any other generation since they hit their teens and still are as they are in 40s and early 50s. They are the first generation to do worse than their parents economically in centuries due to repeated economic crashes, recessions and wars.

[AngelasAshes]

@AnotherAdultHumanFemale
“It's very presumptuous of you to assume you know what happens in every woman's counselling session.”

Er that is the pot calling the kettle black surely? After all you are the one who said “nobody ever asks you” which was speaking for all women and all counsellors. If you had said, in my personal experience...well then you’d have a point.