Depression and suicide attempts in women

[Dyrne]

Firstly, I absolutely want to stress that I fully support the current conversation and momentum about mental health for men - tackling the toxic masculinity and “man up” culture is so important; and I would never want to imply that conversation isn’t important. (Hence me starting my own thread in feminism chat; I would never want to derail an important campaign with “well, actually...”).

Having said all that, I see a lot of talk about how “more men commit suicide than women”. While I completely agree that is an important fact and very useful to get the conversation going and getting men to open up; something often gets left out of these statistics - although men have more successful suicide attempts; women actually attempt suicide more often than men.

Is there a gap here in addressing womens’ mental health?

I think there is a lot behind this - society’s expectation of performing femininity: pressure for women to have a successful career while still being expected to do the bulk of the childcare/housework; having to be seen to “have it all” and do it easily and without complaint.

There is also the question of whether women may find it more difficult in getting taken seriously at the doctor’s office (not sure on stats for mental health; but difficulty accessing treatment for physical health problems is well documented).

Does anyone have any links/studies that have looked into this?

[AngelasAshes]

If you look at ONS, the suicide rates for females has massively decreased since 1981. Meanwhile the suicide rates for males has barely changed.
So, I’d say we SHOULD be focusing on catching the men up. They are 4x more likely to commit suicide. That is a huge gender gap.

The fact that more women were killing themselves in the 1980s to me means that today’s society is a lot better for women. We have more job opportunities, we have more equality & economic independence, we are the majority of students at uni. I don’t know if it is even realistic to think we can get suicide to zero.

[TheInebriati]

Its not my experience either. I posted a link upthread that suggests it isn't at all common.
If it was common then why are women with PTSD often diagnosed with bi-polar, and why is there now a discussion about this?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2743211/

[Dyrne]

But AngelasAshes ; more women still attempt suicide than men do. So clearly that shows we haven’t got very far at all with supporting women; and haven’t achieved anything at all with regards to improving women’s mental health? Encouraging people to “seek help” clearly isn’t working as women are still attempting it more than men even if they are more likely to speak up.

Or are you implying that many of these suicide attempts somehow aren’t genuine?

[LightsInOtherPeoplesHouses]

The fact that more women were killing themselves in the 1980s to me means that today’s society is a lot better for women.

You're ignoring that women attempt suicide more often.

Suicide prevention is incredibly difficult. The one thing we know works is reducing access to methods. Women used to gas themselves with their ovens, changes to the gas supply revived that method. Paracetamol overdose used to be a big problem, we reduced the size of the packs and effectively removed it as a spur of the moment method.

Unfortunately many other methods, many more likely to be used by men, are harder to restrict access to.

[courderoy]

Sorry no studies - only more anecdotal observations :)

I do remember the statistics for suicide being the biggest cause of death for men under 50 was considered in More or Less in radio 4. I think they found that that was because each different cancer was counted as a different cause of death (but a massive caveat as i might have mixed it up with something else)

On an anecdotal basis i think there is a potential issue with well publicised statistics impacting individual care. I really struggled to get my depression diagnosed, even when I managed to tell the GP i was suicidal i got nowhere (I suspect because i am a middle aged woman and the zeitgeist was very much middle aged women being over diagnosed with depression). A male friend was taken very seriously on his first gp visit, was referred and given medication. I ended up seriously ill and under the crisis team after trying to step under a train

[courderoy]

Sorry point of that was that anecdotally care for male / female might be different when issues present and yes absolutely try to prevent suicide in men, but most importantly try to prevent suicide in people - if that makes sense

[PaperFlowers4]

Women are far more likely to be primary/sole carers for children. I wonder if this prevents more women from committing suicide.

[StockTakeFucks]

@AngelasAshes then

Tip1: campaign for better support for men,their services and mental health. Get involved in the community. Etc.

Tip2: do not do it on a feminist forum.

[StockTakeFucks]

@PaperFlowers4 I'd say yes, from the same point of view as to why women use different methods to men and why they end up as attempts rather than a completed suicide.

[Gingerkittykat]

@PaperFlowers4 Yes, having close family bonds and children is a protective factor for suicide.

It makes me wonder if the age when women commit suicide is when kids start to leave home.

www.sprc.org/about-suicide/risk-protective-factors

[AngelasAshes]

Actually women do NOT use different methods from men.
Both men and women mostly use hanging and poison as their suicide methods. Look it up on ONS. It’s a myth that men choose different methods from women.
In addition, men and women have equal access to the same suicide methods.
@LightsInOtherPeoplesHouses- no I am not ignoring the fact that women attempt suicide more often than men, what you are failing to see is that women are attempting and succeeding at suicide FAR LESS OFTEN than they did in the 1980s. Suicide attempts and completions NOW are less than HALF of what they were in the 1980s.

[AngelasAshes]

“In 2017 in the UK, as in previous years, the most common method of suicide for both males and females was hanging, suffocation or strangulation (all grouped together). This accounted for 59.7% of all suicides among males and 42.1% of all suicides among females (see Figure 8).

The second most common method of suicide was poisoning, accounting for 18.2% of all suicides among males and 38.3% of all suicides among females.”

Men and women use the SAME methods.

[AngelasAshes]

@StockTakeFucks
WTAF are you talking about? I’m not an activist. I’m having a discussion about suicide on a feminist forum.
Are you saying feminism does not apply to men or care about men? Really?! And I thought feminism was about equality between men and women and erasing gender gaps...all of them..not just the gender gaps that favour men.

[StockTakeFucks]

More men use hanging/suffocation/strangulations than women ,a method which tends to be more fatal and with a minimal window of saving.

More women use drugs than men, which can be less fatal, there is a chance to ask for help and a larger window for intervention.

Yes all methods are used by both men and women, but men tend to pick the more violent/no going back ones.

In countries with firearms, it tends to be the most common method of suicide. Men are more likely than women to own one to begin with. They also tend to go for the head more than women.

[StockTakeFucks]

If there's absolutely no difference in methods then how come more men die than women,despite women attempting suicide 3-4 times more than men?

[AngelasAshes]

@StockTakeFucks
Why do more men die if women are trying more often?
Well that’s the question we’d all like an answer to. Maybe it’s how we count attempts.
I do see counting of aborted attempts as “suicide attempts” for example, taking an overdose and then having second thoughts and dealing 999. This to my mind, is not technically a full suicide attempt.
Maybe it’s that women are more impulsive and men more deliberate.
Maybe it’s that people notice sooner if a woman is “missing” than if a man is missing because of perceived vulnerabilities and so more women are found in time. For example, parents worry less if a teenage son is out 2hrs past curfew than a teenage daughter. More likely to go looking or call for help if it’s a girl/woman who is not where she is supposed or expected to be.
Could be any number of things.

[StockTakeFucks]

I’m having a discussion about suicide on a feminist forum.

Suicide and depression in WOMEN. It's in the title.

Are you saying feminism does not apply to men or care about men?

Yup

Maybe it’s that women are more impulsive and men more deliberate.

Yeah...no.

[StockTakeFucks]

Ironically there's a certain sub current in your posts(intentionally or not) that men are simply better than women...including at killing themselves.

[AngelasAshes]

@StockTakeFucks
Yes, because sticking to the facts and pointing out the shit you are making up must mean I think men are better than women. That I’m no feminist at all so...little old smarty pants miss you decides to launch the personal attack complete with misusing the word “ironically”

I could just as easily mean that men are more fragile than women and that’s why so many more are dying despite women trying more often. Maybe the “sub current” is that women are just so hardy, so superior to men that they can endure so much more than men. After all, the top ultra endurance athletes are women, not men. So what kills a poor weak man isn’t enough to kill a woman, so we survive suicide attempts more often.

[StockTakeFucks]

Sure..if that's how you want to take it.

[bd67th]

I just don't understand why it can't be neutral, just general health matters and provide awareness and support to everyone involved.

For fuck's sake, this AGAIN.

• "Neutral" under patriarchy means "men as default" and women's specific needs being ignored, whether biological (e.g. meds tested and proven to work on our bodies, which almost never happens, meds are tested on men), environmental (e.g. running an gauntlet of sexual assault risk twice per day on the commute and the stress that causes), or historical (e.g. CSA).
  
• Erasing (aka ignoring) difference means ignoring how men often have better access to quick and violent suicide means, e.g. through work, and how this makes women less likely to succeed. A PP mentioned gas as a suicide method, as used by Sylvia Plath. When "town gas" was made by heating coal and collecting the fumes, it was a cocktail of many chemicals, carbon monoxide being one, and women would lie on the kitchen floor and put their head in the oven for a very peaceful death. The adoption of North Sea gas, which is almost pure methane, stopped us from doing that.
  
• Erasing difference means ignoring how women's caring responsibilities force us to stay alive.
  
• Erasing difference means ignoring how autism presents differently in women and girls compared to men and boys, for whom the diagnosis was written (fuck you, Simon Baron-Cohen) and consigning women and girls to the wastepaper diagnosis of EUPD/BPD.
  
• Erasing difference means ignoring medical misogyny, where medical professionals treat men and women completely differently and dismiss our symptoms.
  
  It's 2019 on FWR and I'm still having to explain this. Jesus Christ on a bike.

[bd67th]

taking an overdose and then having second thoughts and dealing 999. This to my mind, is not technically a full suicide attempt.

WTAF? An attempt is an attempt. An attempt with second thoughts can still succeed if enough of the poison/drug has made it into the body before medical help begins. When I made my first attempt whilst still at school, (aside: can we talk about teen girls and suicide later in this thread?), the A&E staff were very interested in how much paracetamol I had taken and exactly when I had taken it, because that informed them whether the carbon they made me drink would have a chance of working, or was it already too late and I was going to "spend two weeks in ICU turning yellow" (the duty psychiatrist's description of dying of liver failure).

Someone putting themselves at risk of death should be taken seriously, always, whether or not they change their mind. Doing otherwise is both physically dangerous to the suicidal person and is minimising their depression and gaslighting them. By saying "not a full suicide attempt", you are gaslighting suicidal women and minimising our pain.

Jesus wept, the levels of sheer ignorance of medical reality and utter lack of empathy on this thread.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

When I made a suicide attempt it was very serious. I won't tell the tale - far too long - but what stopped me was an unexpected phone call from my DM. The tablets were already kicking in but her voice woke me up from what was a totally unbalanced state and as soon as I hung up I called 999.

Turned out one of the A & E doctors was in a relationship with a woman at the student crisis centre. I'd walk around all night and often drop in there. She'd been worried about me and I have a very unusual first name. So he guessed who I was and was very kind, as were the other staff.

But it was days before I thought I'd done the right thing calling the ambulance. I kept wishing I'd succeeded and that it was all over. It's a very painful memory.

[bd67th]

Paracetamol overdose used to be a big problem, we reduced the size of the packs and effectively removed it as a spur of the moment method.

The types and pack sizes of medication have changed hugely in my lifetime.

• It's a lot harder to get codeine in any kind of quantity than it was, because co-codamol is restricted to 32 tablets OTC and codeine on its own needs a prescription.
  
• Kaolin and morphine was the drug of choice for diarrhoea, and you could let the kaolin settle and drink the morphine syrup. My parents had a litre of it. You buy it in 200ml bottles now.
  
• Doctors don't often prescribe the old-fashioned tranquilisers like valium that could and would kill you if you took a handful. They are more likely to prescribe buspirone for anxiety and SSRIs for depression, both of which have much less potential to kill.
  
  This might be why women are self-poisoning less in recent years? Whereas keeping a construction worker off the tall building he works on is much harder.
  
  Suicide is usually fairly impulsive, and forcing a delay prevents the suicide but the underlying misery is still there. Women are probably not much happier than they were forty years ago, if at all. We didn't have to deal with revenge porn, hidden cameras in loos, and the Universal Credit rape clause back then, we might be more miserable.