Gender Pay Gap and Gender Identity

[Seeingadistance]

Waking up angry!

I wake up to Radio 2 as my alarm, and this morning woke up to the 7.30am news bulletin in which I heard that female presenters in the BBC have written an open letter about BBC pay which has confirmed what they have long suspected - a huge disparity between the salaries of male and female.

Then, fucking then, I hear that the Government is proposing to make it easier to change one's gender identity legally!

Oh for fuck's sake!

Well, maybe the juxtaposition will show this up for how fucking ridiculous it is.

[ethan01]

@SylviaPoe

You are yet to prove and women gets paid less than a man for the same work. I showed why it that doesn't happen and explained why the general statistics are misleading.

[TefalTester123]

Never normally post on this stuff but ethan01 you should know that in the BBC stats there are men and women doing the same job, presenting the same programme with vast differences. eg Nicky Campbell gets 400,000-449,000, his co-presenter on 5live Breakfast is Rachel Burden who is below the 150,000 threshold (she has said she is on about 125,000). He might be more experienced, but that's one hell of a difference.

You do not know what you are talking about.

[SylviaPoe]

"It wasn't UK specific but we have a variant of it in the UK.'

Then provide a statistic with a reference.

Why should anyone be interested in your arguments about how such statistics are compiled if you can't even provide any statistics?

I have no interest in arguing your points. It's not actually your thread. The OP is Seeingadistance.

[ethan01]

@DJBaggySmalls
"Asda faces £100m" - and that's the consequence for breaking the law.
The headline doesn't say "Asas pays women less and gets away with it.

I don't know why everyone assumes employees are all sexist or something. My dad owns a business. He doesn't say "I'll hire you jim your salary is X. I'll hire sally too. Wait! shes a women. I should pay her less." It doesn't work like this.

[TefalTester123]

Also ethan01, I used to believe that there was no deliberate gender pay gap, though I too was quite young then. Then I encountered real life examples of the way womens careers are screwed behind their backs when they take a few months maternity leave.

[ethan01]

@SylviaPoe

You provided a statistic already and I counted it. Why would I get another one?

[Gingerbeer200]

There is no such thing as gender pay gap. It's bull. Do men get a year of paid on maternity leave? Do men get Flexi time or in alotof cases childcare costs? No they do not, so they are in fact the party to have no advantages.
Men have to work more hours and harder for their money, often working in dangerous or dirty conditions that women just won't do or be physically able to do.
What you want is women to be paid far superior to men to make up the difference in wage and hours worked . If a women who works 20 hours a week is paid the same as a man who works double or more hours how is that fair?
That makes feminists the sexist ones, that men have to be inferior.

[Shenanagins]

ethan not illegal to publish your equal pay data, why would it be? Also have a look in the press for lots of evidence of jobs whereby males and females doing the same or like related work and are not getting paid the same.

[ethan01]

@TefalTester123

You talk about people doing the exact same job at the BBC but my point still stands. If lets say in a movie there is two main characters, DiCaprio and a unknown. Obviously DiCaprio is going to make more even though they are doing the same work, this is because he provides more value to the movie than the other person. (doesn't mean he is the better actor though)

And you say you encounter some real life examples and before then you didn't believe it either. A few personal anecdotes does not account for an entire country. I'm not saying sexists don't exists out there, but you have to show me statistics. I also know of people of both genders who have been paid less than their opposite gender counter parts for the same work. Only in the case of the women did they give her a pay rise because they were scared of getting sued.

[SylviaPoe]

Because it would require you to actually go and read the statistics for the ONS that I linked to. Actually having read the UK ONS statistics is a basis for a claim that the specific methodology around them is incorrect.

Nobody on here can 'disprove' your claim about statistics unless you actually provide specific evidence as to how they are compiled.

I do not know all of the differences between the UK and US compilation and analysis methods, but certainly they will exist. You mention the Stats for workplace fatalities, and yet these are hugely difference in the US and the UK, and compiled in ways that make them incomparable.

We're not here to do your work for you. You need to provide specific figures, compilation methods and an understanding of the different terms.

[Datun]

Yes we have a equal pay laws, but there is still a gender pay gap. It's called a gender pay gap, not an equal pay gap.

However, despite the equality laws, women are still paid less for doing exactly the same job as men. See the BBC. It happens everywhere. But that's not the main reason for the gender pay gap.

There is a big difference. It's complex but mostly has to do with the work that women do being underpaid and under valued. Until men do them. See teaching, coding, etc.

I don't know why everyone assumes employees are all sexist or something.

Yeah, funny that.

[ethan01]

@SylviaPoe I have read them and my point still stands.

The only statistics that would count would be if they compared men and women in the same job at the same place of work. These statistics do not exist.

And even then it would be misleading. It would have to take into account hours worked, how much money they individual brings in the for the company, whether they have been working their a long time and received pay increases for loyalty and good work ect.

[SylviaPoe]

If you only want to compare two individuals, that is not statistics.

If you have some kind of general postmodern issue with statistics, that's fine.

I'm a scientist, and not interested in the whole postmodern thing.

But why are you disagreeing with the whole basis of statistics on a gender topic? People create statistics about all sorts of things. You could go and debate it with the rationalist community perhaps.

[ethan01]

@Datun

People always see the gender pay gap (and it doesnt take into account any variables) and then they assume it means an equal pay gap.

There is not proof to suggest that women earn less for the same work as men and no one has yet to provide it

People just keep making bold claims and saying it must be somewhere at there in the ether. I'm not saying there isn't some situations where it happens. However it does happen both ways.

[ethan01]

@SylviaPoe

So you're pulling out the scientist car now haha
You clearly are not reading what I have been saying. The statics don't take into account variable and what most people end up taking from this is false assumptions

If you were a scientist I'm sure you would of noticed this, however it is very unlikely that you are.

I don't know where you are getting the postmodernism arugment from, that,s got to be one of the most ridiculous straw men arguments I have ever seen,

[Shenanagins]

ethan those stats do exist, some are published by organisations some are not for good reason.

I've spent years looking at such stats behind closed doors for various organisations and it's rare to find an institutional issue when looking at equal pay. Furthermore organisations are usually keen to address equal pay.

Now gender pay throws up much more challenging issues, e.g. freedom of opportunity both in the wider context and within the organisation. This will take years to address.

[SylviaPoe]

It's quite interesting to see which professions have no gender pay gap, or a very small one.

Undertakers, for example, have a 0.8% gap in favour of women.

[NewRug]

There is a gender pay gap.

You can compare like for like jobs etc and not find one. I probably earn more than my male counterparts as one example.

But women are disproportionately worse off, because there is a cultural, legal and logistic disadvantage for women.

Women are EXPECTED to give up their careers to child rear, how many companies do you know that pay occupational maternity pay, but only offer men the statutory amount if they take shared parental leave?

Logistically that's a challenge, legally it's allowed.

Therefore women lose years of incremental pay rises, and exposure to opportunities in the workplace.

Culturally we think woman who have taken time off to look after children as losing workplace skills, not pausing them, let alone enhancing them.

I know I personally became a better people manager and more patient after my maternity leave. (Diligently keeping your cool when a toddler loses their shit over nothing, is quite comparable to a CEO, well behaving the same). It's hard to convince employers that though, especially if you took longer than a year off.
(I took only 6 months off, and quite good at my job, so explains why I am winning the pay gap war right now)

The whole gender identity crisis amuses me greatly, given gender is totally made up.

Please self ID to the purple broccoli mustard gender, as much as you god damn please.

But it's sex that should drive statics, people born with ovaries are predisposed to being prejudiced against. Any born woman who has had a job interview in their late twenties can testify, especially if you don't already have kids. You know the interviewer is thinking when will this woman go on maternity leave...

It's not a gender pay gap, it's a biological sex pay gap. Doesn't have the same ring to it though!

[ethan01]

@Shenanagins

I'm sorry but i'm not going to be convinced by you saying "some are not published for good reason". Then all of a sudden claiming you are have some knowledge of looking at various organisations behind closed doors.

It may be true that you have, but unless I could confirm that, I can't just believe that it true. Just cause someone claims there is this sexism somewhere out there in the ether holding all women down, it does not mean it exists. Don't get me wrong though, if you can show that this is happening, I agree, it is bad and I will happily fight the cause with you.

As of now however no one has shown otherwise.

[ethan01]

@NewRug
In my first post I say this and explain some of the factors for the disparity in the statistics. However a lot of people lot at the statistics and take from take from it that "a women earns less for the same work as a man". My argument is against the same work argument not the gap in general.

[SylviaPoe]

Girls should certainly look at the hourly pay gaps for different jobs before choosing a career.

[Shenanagins]

Ok ethan you win, there isn't anything. I'm not going to divulge confidential information I've obtained through my job just to win an argument on a public forum with someone who can't even read links provided on this thread or even equality cases as reported in the press.

[ethan01]

Too many people are replying here lol. Before i have intensified once response there is like 3 new ones, and with all that plus all the straw mans it makes it impossible to tackle every point. If someone wants a civil debate DM and we can talk on skype or something would be much easier.

[ethan01]

finished one response*

I dont know how i made such a big typo there lol

[ethan01]

@Shenanagins

I totally understand. I'm not asking you to do that, I just mean that I cant believe stuff without evidence. Don't get me wrong though, i am not calling you a liar.