IAAF finds elevated testosterone provides a significant advantage in sport

[QuentinSummers]

No shit sherlock

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2017/07/04/caster-semenya-could-forced-take-testosterone-medication-study/amp/

Interestingly the statement refers a lot to "females" and protecting "female participation" so perhaps this is the start of a reversion to sports being sex rather than gender based.
On the radio they reported that some commentators are already calling it biological racism however.

[QuentinSummers]

scot the reason I highlighted the language in my OP is precisely about this.
"Woman" can have a social definition (anyone who lives and is perceived as female) but "female" has a biological definition - of the sex that can produce ova.
Unfortunately for Semenya and other intersex athletes, they are not female. They cannot produce ova due to a developmental disorder.
They are not male either.
Intersex women (with a Y chromosome) are over represented in elite sport suggesting it confers an advantage - and the IAAF study suggests that advantage is testosterone. It's not comparable to muscle twitch fibre as it's an entirely predictable thing. It's more comparable to whether or not to allow runners on blades into the sprint events.
Females are not a catch all category for "not men". While I feel very sympathetic to Semenya and women like her, it's not fair on female athletes for them to compete in the same category when intersex athletes have a proven competitive advantage, unless the intersex athletes have testosterone suppression into the normal female range. But that could be medically damaging.
Really the answer is to have an "open" category although it probably won't be acceptable because it would be dominated by not quite elite men.

[BetsyM00]

Quentin Off the topic of sports but I have to take issue with what you say about women.

You quite correctly define females, but the female sex simply consists of 2 categories - young females (girls), and adult females (women).

So the word woman is every bit a biological definition as female is.

I don't believe woman has a social definition in that anyone who lives as a female/woman (whatever that may mean) is a woman.

[Datun]

BetsyM00

I agree with that. A woman is an adult human female.

I have no idea how the word woman has suddenly come to mean a social role. In general, I mean.

Like sow is an adult female pig.

[scottishdiem]

Its interesting. Born and raised as a woman. Lives and believes that they are a woman. Runs too fast and suddenly no longer a woman.

[noeffingidea]

scottishdiem
born and raised as a woman. Lives and believes that they are a woman. That's irrelevant in this context. Caster is genetically male, a male with AIS (as far as we know). Running too fast didn't suddenly make Caster 'not a woman' if they were never one to begin with.

[QuentinSummers]

Well I sort of agree but in the case of people with AIS - male chromosomes and gonads, female secondary sex characteristics. May have been brought up as a girl until no periods etc. Technically they are intersex but I feel they have every right to claim an identity as a woman so as not to have to explain their complex medical history to everyone they meet.
To me that's not at all the same as someone being born male and later choosing to define themselves as a woman.
I know it's hard with terminology because of TRAs but I think intersex women are different to trans women.

[QuentinSummers]

scot this "Runs too fast and suddenly no longer a woman." Is more accurately expressed as "runs too fast so medical investigations required, find she is not female".

[cuirderussie]

Scottish, not sure why you felt the need to racialise the women's 800m last year. The three "losers" (4th, 5th and 6th) were clearly women, trained and toned and wiry but undoubtedly female. The winners? Come on.

Are you a woman? Do you have any compassion for women athletes who have had such a short hard won history in competitive sport and who are now having it ruined?

[OlennasWimple]

I feel desperately sorry for Castor Semenya, who has had all kinds of intrusive medical tests (and been on the receiving end of all kinds of comments about her body). However, there is no law meaning that she has to compete as an elite athlete - she has the option to step out of the competition. Or maybe elite intersex athletes could compete in the men's competition.

Does anyone else remember Diane Modahl, the British athlete who was banned for a false positive testosterone test? I wonder how her case would be handled now

[Floralnomad]

They can't compete with the men because they would no longer be competetive , I read an article a few weeks ago ( which I can't find) that said Semenyas times are , in a male sense , roughly in line with good high school athletes times , so she would no longer be elite .

[QuentinSummers]

floral but by allowing intersex athletes to compete with females that's exactly what's happening to female competitors. As usual females should suck it up though, and be nice and not complain that they can't compete.

[Floralnomad]

Oh don't get me wrong , I don't think they should be competing in women's events I was just explaining to the pp why she equally can't compete with men , or at least elite men . I think they should have their own section to compete in . I watch a lot of athletics , when the women's 800m is in that's when I get a drink / go to the loo , it's not worth watching because IMO it's a mockery . I actually don't know why all the other women don't boycott the races .

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I've just watched some of Semenya's races - 400 and 800. She has reserves of strength which the other women just can't match.

On the 400 I watched she misjudged it slightly. She was at the back for most of the race then powered through in the final seconds to take silver. The actual distance she left herself to do this was so short it looked impossible but she did it but it emphasised that she really is in a category of her own.

On this interview she looks 100% a man. No woman ever sits like that.

[Wormulonian]

At one point Caster did take medication to reduce her testostorone levels and her times completely fell away. Perhaps there needs to be intersex and trans categories in athletics.

[OlennasWimple]

Flora, yeah, I know intersex athletes could choose to compete in the men's events, and on an individual level I don't really blame them for choosing to compete in the women's instead (do you want to be number 1 or number 701 in the world?), but I don't think that the IAAF should allow women's sports to be marginalised like this