IAAF finds elevated testosterone provides a significant advantage in sport

[QuentinSummers]

No shit sherlock

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2017/07/04/caster-semenya-could-forced-take-testosterone-medication-study/amp/

Interestingly the statement refers a lot to "females" and protecting "female participation" so perhaps this is the start of a reversion to sports being sex rather than gender based.
On the radio they reported that some commentators are already calling it biological racism however.

[OlennasWimple]

Flora, yeah, I know intersex athletes could choose to compete in the men's events, and on an individual level I don't really blame them for choosing to compete in the women's instead (do you want to be number 1 or number 701 in the world?), but I don't think that the IAAF should allow women's sports to be marginalised like this

[Wormulonian]

At one point Caster did take medication to reduce her testostorone levels and her times completely fell away. Perhaps there needs to be intersex and trans categories in athletics.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I've just watched some of Semenya's races - 400 and 800. She has reserves of strength which the other women just can't match.

On the 400 I watched she misjudged it slightly. She was at the back for most of the race then powered through in the final seconds to take silver. The actual distance she left herself to do this was so short it looked impossible but she did it but it emphasised that she really is in a category of her own.

On this interview she looks 100% a man. No woman ever sits like that.

[Floralnomad]

Oh don't get me wrong , I don't think they should be competing in women's events I was just explaining to the pp why she equally can't compete with men , or at least elite men . I think they should have their own section to compete in . I watch a lot of athletics , when the women's 800m is in that's when I get a drink / go to the loo , it's not worth watching because IMO it's a mockery . I actually don't know why all the other women don't boycott the races .

[QuentinSummers]

floral but by allowing intersex athletes to compete with females that's exactly what's happening to female competitors. As usual females should suck it up though, and be nice and not complain that they can't compete.

[Floralnomad]

They can't compete with the men because they would no longer be competetive , I read an article a few weeks ago ( which I can't find) that said Semenyas times are , in a male sense , roughly in line with good high school athletes times , so she would no longer be elite .

[OlennasWimple]

I feel desperately sorry for Castor Semenya, who has had all kinds of intrusive medical tests (and been on the receiving end of all kinds of comments about her body). However, there is no law meaning that she has to compete as an elite athlete - she has the option to step out of the competition. Or maybe elite intersex athletes could compete in the men's competition.

Does anyone else remember Diane Modahl, the British athlete who was banned for a false positive testosterone test? I wonder how her case would be handled now

[cuirderussie]

Scottish, not sure why you felt the need to racialise the women's 800m last year. The three "losers" (4th, 5th and 6th) were clearly women, trained and toned and wiry but undoubtedly female. The winners? Come on.

Are you a woman? Do you have any compassion for women athletes who have had such a short hard won history in competitive sport and who are now having it ruined?

[QuentinSummers]

scot this "Runs too fast and suddenly no longer a woman." Is more accurately expressed as "runs too fast so medical investigations required, find she is not female".

[QuentinSummers]

Well I sort of agree but in the case of people with AIS - male chromosomes and gonads, female secondary sex characteristics. May have been brought up as a girl until no periods etc. Technically they are intersex but I feel they have every right to claim an identity as a woman so as not to have to explain their complex medical history to everyone they meet.
To me that's not at all the same as someone being born male and later choosing to define themselves as a woman.
I know it's hard with terminology because of TRAs but I think intersex women are different to trans women.

[noeffingidea]

scottishdiem
born and raised as a woman. Lives and believes that they are a woman. That's irrelevant in this context. Caster is genetically male, a male with AIS (as far as we know). Running too fast didn't suddenly make Caster 'not a woman' if they were never one to begin with.

[scottishdiem]

Its interesting. Born and raised as a woman. Lives and believes that they are a woman. Runs too fast and suddenly no longer a woman.

[Datun]

BetsyM00

I agree with that. A woman is an adult human female.

I have no idea how the word woman has suddenly come to mean a social role. In general, I mean.

Like sow is an adult female pig.

[BetsyM00]

Quentin Off the topic of sports but I have to take issue with what you say about women.

You quite correctly define females, but the female sex simply consists of 2 categories - young females (girls), and adult females (women).

So the word woman is every bit a biological definition as female is.

I don't believe woman has a social definition in that anyone who lives as a female/woman (whatever that may mean) is a woman.

[QuentinSummers]

scot the reason I highlighted the language in my OP is precisely about this.
"Woman" can have a social definition (anyone who lives and is perceived as female) but "female" has a biological definition - of the sex that can produce ova.
Unfortunately for Semenya and other intersex athletes, they are not female. They cannot produce ova due to a developmental disorder.
They are not male either.
Intersex women (with a Y chromosome) are over represented in elite sport suggesting it confers an advantage - and the IAAF study suggests that advantage is testosterone. It's not comparable to muscle twitch fibre as it's an entirely predictable thing. It's more comparable to whether or not to allow runners on blades into the sprint events.
Females are not a catch all category for "not men". While I feel very sympathetic to Semenya and women like her, it's not fair on female athletes for them to compete in the same category when intersex athletes have a proven competitive advantage, unless the intersex athletes have testosterone suppression into the normal female range. But that could be medically damaging.
Really the answer is to have an "open" category although it probably won't be acceptable because it would be dominated by not quite elite men.

[scottishdiem]

www.slate.com/articles/sports/fivering_circus/2016/08/should_caster_semenya_be_allowed_to_compete_against_women.html

[Datun]

scottishdiem

They do all that? They don't just check her testosterone levels and come up with a number?

How do they apply that same criteria to transwomen?

[scottishdiem]

Mmmm.

"If an athlete like Semenya failed the initial hormone screen, she’d be examined in more detail to see if her testosterone was “functional” enough to give her an advantage. How would the doctors figure out if her testosterone was functional? They’d check how much of it was bound to her receptors, screen her for known mutations in those same receptors, weigh the hoarseness of her voice, rate the development of her pubic hair and breasts, evaluate her muscles, size her labia, palpate her vagina, and measure her anogenital distance. In other words, they’d try to calculate the degree to which she’d been virilized—or one might say, made “manly”—by her intersex condition."

Also, as seen on twitter, [we] know Semenya is a woman because people are trying to control her body.

[soapboxqueen]

So would we only accept females with a diagnosable condition to explain elevated testosterone levels? Could we differentiate between them and those claiming a diagnosable condition in order to take extra testosterone for performance purposes?

[OneFlewOverTheDodosNest]

The three athletes who won the 800m in Rio were, to my understanding, all males with AIS. Whilst I can understand that having AIS can lead to a person growing up fully believing that they are female, the fact is that genetically they are male and will retain some biological advantages although not the same as a man who has experienced a full male puberty.

Dutee Chand as a contrast has hyperandrogenism which, whilst controversial due to elevated testosterone levels, is still a condition impacting biological females.

To be true to the idea of sex segregated sports then we'd include all females (XX or variations thereof) and exclude all males (XY or variations thereof) regardless of any hormonal or endocrinological issues.

[soapboxqueen]

Vestal my point was, if we allowed people with naturally high levels of testosterone to compete, such as people with intersex conditions. How would differentiate between them and some random woman artificially improving her performance with testosterone. Would it even be fair to stop women from taking testosterone if the range of acceptable levels is so much higher? We allow men with low testosterone levels to supplement. If that being the case, how do we stop the damage that would be done to these women in the name of sporting success? How do we protect young girls who are identified by their governments as having sporting talent from being pumped full of testosterone in order to win?

[Datun]

VestalVirgin

As far as I know, they made the maximum level far higher than any woman could achieve. Which is how transwomen get to compete.

I don't know if they did that include people like Castor or transwomen.

But it would seem to be the obvious solution.

Although, of course, transwomen would have benefited from naturally producing testerone anyway, even if the levels are subsequently lowered.

[VestalVirgin]

Can anti-doping labs tell the difference between naturally and artificially high levels?

Since M0stly pointed out that PCOS does not elevate testosterone levels that much ... just ban everyone with levels over a certain point, as it'd would have to be either doping or an intersex condition.

(Or perhaps a hormone producing tumor, in which case surely the athlete would be happy to know about it ...)

[BlindYeo]

It's missing the point Scottish to talk about Michael Phelps and Usain Bolt.

Women's athletics is a specific artificial category to divide men from women because on average men are considerably faster and stronger then women.

Similarly, sports like boxing and judo are divided into artificial weight categories so that smaller/lighter athletes can still have the experience of competing and winning.

Swimming doesn't happen to have any further categorisation systems mostly because it's not a contact sport ,although it could do if people felt it was important enough. The point is it doesn't at present so Michael Phelps isn't breaching a category by having large feet or whatever.

The trans and intersex problem in sport is the breaching of a pre-existing, agreed artificial division among male and female competitors which was created precisely because of biological differences. It renders the category pointless, like allowing a heavyweight boxer into a bantamweight category because they say they feel very light.

I agree with the pp who said it's not just about testosterone either. It's about bodies that have been through male puberty and will therefore retain all the other general advantages of male puberty such as musculature, height, skeletal frame, pelvic angle, proportion of fast twitch fires and so on, even if you then reduce testosterone levels afterwards.

Genuine intersex athletes could have their own medal category, surely that would be a fair solution. That 800m race podium was a bad moment for women's sport. Transgender male to female athletes, sorry no, compete with your biological sex unless you took puberty blockers.

[DJBaggySmalls]

Nezt, following bears round the woods with a bucket.