Why do so many men turn bad...?

[Destinysdaughter]

Was just thinking about this, May be simplistic but was wondering why so many men end up being rapists, paedophiles, DV abusers, stalkers etc?

Is it something in their family background, being a victim of abuse themselves, conditioning, or something else?

I've been pondering this thread for a few days and have been wondering if we are focussing too much on the quantity of 'badness' and not so much on 'qualities'. I haven't quite thought this through, but when I read the original post which said "why so many men end up being rapists, paedophiles, DV abusers, stalkers etc?" I immediately thought of the kinds of entitlement that 'ordinary' men possess and the kinds of 'ordinary' abuses that women face in our day-to-day lives. There are general categories here. For example, many men think they have the right to women's labour. Women do their womanly work of looking after the children and men do them a favour by 'minding' the products of their own DNA. How many times have I read here and elsewhere of battles about the domestic labour and men's refusal to do their fair share (and this is well-supported in domestic time-use surveys)? Carole Pateman, Andrea Dworkin, Catharine MacKinnon and others have read about men's 'sex right', the right that men have (and think they are entitled to) and that is still enshrined in some laws, to women's bodies. This is reflected in prostitution, pornography, rape and much domestic violence. I could go on ... but fundamentally I've been wondering if it is not so much that men go bad, but that some turn up the volume on ordinary male behaviour enough to be noticed and called on it?

That is if we can, for once, have a discussion about the original topic without entitled male posters derailing and then whining for women to suck their dicks answer their questions?

:/ Oh gosh, I assume that was directed at me. That makes me feel bad.

I assure everyone I was not demanding anyone do anything metaphorical with my willy, just throwing out pertinent questions in an online discussion.

Sometimes I wonder about online discussion. People get very aggressive very quickly.

"but fundamentally I've been wondering if it is not so much that men go bad, but that some turn up the volume on ordinary male behaviour enough to be noticed and called on it?"

Funnily enough, that's my question too. But I would raise the deeper question (though I hope in a non-entitled and non-demanding of an answer kind of way) of where the 'ordinary male behaviour' comes from. Were they born with it? Or did they acquire it?

This is a very important question. If it is the former then there is very little anyone can do about it. If the latter then there is.

This question cuts to the heart of the nature/nurture debate.

but that some turn up the volume on ordinary male behaviour enough to be noticed and called on it?
I think that's an excellent point, Yet.

And of course one question is how much of that behaviour is innate and how much societal. Another is what we can do about it. If someone with a 'psychopathic' brain can be raised to be law-abiding, functioning member of society, though a competitive one, surely, as a society, we can do better with boys than produce the number of sexual assailants, violent abusers and all the not physically violent but nonetheless unpleasant individuals than we do now?

I wouldn't say psychopaths are ever functional LumelaMme, even when they're law abiding. I knew one once.

He was a very sucessful, ostensibly charismatic man who looked straight at me and said 'if one of my children died, I'd feel nothing'. He was an enormous asset to the industrial-capitalist complex, but as a human being he was totally off his rocker.

But sorry this is getting off the topic in hand.

Lumela - And of course one question is how much of that behaviour is innate and how much societal. Another is what we can do about it. If someone with a 'psychopathic' brain can be raised to be law-abiding, functioning member of society, though a competitive one, surely, as a society, we can do better with boys than produce the number of sexual assailants, violent abusers and all the not physically violent but nonetheless unpleasant individuals than we do now

Yes, I think a lot has to do with raising boys not to be entitled and to see women as equal in personhood. This is pretty Kantian really - seeing women as ends and not means (to their ends).

josef we get a lot of trolling on here. It follows a pattern of starting off discussing the point at hand and then subtly (or not so subtly) switching onto discussing the shortcomings of women and then getting actually really arsey and accusing us of being man haters and saying things like "if you were a bit nicer/less emotional then I might engage".
I thought early indications were you were off down that path. I apologise if you are here to discuss in good faith.

Thank you Devi.

It follows a pattern of starting off discussing the point at hand and then subtly (or not so subtly) switching onto discussing the shortcomings of women and then getting actually really arsey and accusing us of being man haters and saying things like "if you were a bit nicer/less emotional then I might engage"

Don't forget making oneself the centre of attention, asking demanding questions and demanding answers, not actually listening to responses and repeating the same point over and over if disagreed with (because, surely, if we understood we'd agree).

By typing psychopaths are you actually talking about sociopaths or just anyone with a psychopathology? There's a massive different and I'd like to be clear what you mean before I respond.

And please, no evo-psych bollocks, it just makes me cross when people perpetuate unfalsifiable dribbling arsegravy.

What is a 'demanding question'?

Yes Yet, it's almost like there's a pattern to the behaviour!

Yes Yet, it's almost like there's a pattern to the behaviour!

Mmmmm ... one finally crosses the line and gets banned and another identical twin pops up ...

Have I said something wrong?

I meant psychopath, Xeno.
Re the psychopathic brain
And a little more

No evo-psych bollocks.

Thank you. That article also seems to be describing sociopathy as psychopathy. Presumably for ease of reference.

And I never thought you were spouting evo-psych bollocks anyway.

Aren't sociopathy and psychopathy interchangable terms? Or at least overlap?

Xenophile - The actual documentary 'Are You Good or Evil' is more descriptive (and a very interesting watch).

I am incredibly jaded, but from late 30s ALL the men I know have gone bad. Not rapists and murder etc, but without exception all the men, and it is predominantly white upper middle class men, are indulging in prostitutes, drugs, affairs, selfish behaviour in other ways, not wanting to pay tax, belittling their wives, not doing their share, peacocking.

I am so disappointed. I wish I knew some good, honest, thoughtful, kind, generous of spirit men who would give me hope!

Went to a pub tonight, (yeah Tuesday evening) full of men, the only woman was the barmaid - such a fantastically chilled atmos.

More Single sex spaces says I.

You do surprise me, cadno.

A book called why good people turn evil by philip zimbardo makes for an interesting read

A book called why good people turn evil by philip zimbardo makes for an interesting read

Single sex spaces for women and men. Spread the joy

I am incredibly jaded, but from late 30s ALL the men I know have gone bad. Not rapists and murder etc, but without exception all the men, and it is predominantly white upper middle class men, are indulging in prostitutes, drugs, affairs, selfish behaviour in other ways, not wanting to pay tax, belittling their wives, not doing their share, peacocking

Yeah - this is what I meant re sociopathic / psychopathic male behaviours just being the volume turned up on these kinds of activities. A lower level of abuse of women is not only tolerated, it's often seen as natural and 'just how things are' and certain activities are even protected in law.

I see similar kinds of behaviours across the social classes, though.

The men that make me raise my eyebrows a lot are the ones that talk the talk of being enlightened feminist men. I say 'oh yes'. and wait for the shoe to drop. It usually does and when it does so it is spectacular with copious amounts self-justification, posturing, whining and mansplaining.

The crunch point is often a point where a man is asked to give up his privilege or actually walk the walk in making a decision or choosing a behaviour that will not be to his benefit. A case in point was a man who was offered a career move in his 30s which involved a change of locale to somewhere remote and with diminished opportunity for everyone but him. He had three young daughters and a wife as well as family in his home city. All had hobbies, schools etc. and there was extended family to help care for the children. The wife was just returning to work / her career. Up to this point, he was Mr Feminist - the nice guy who had read the books (and quoted from them) and participated equally in childcare (so he said) and was always so supportive. Then ... 'BANG'. It was almost as if a switch flipped and it was all about him and his career and his wife didn't understand and why couldn't it be about him blah, blah, blah. In the end, the typical happened with the family following Him and His Career.

That's just one example I could cite many more. It's easy to be a 'nice guy' when you are not challenged, but it's amazing how many men claim male power and privilege when not doing so would in some way diminish them, their chances, etc. It's a little like benevolent monarchs. Yes, they do nice things for their subjects, but deep down everyone knows that they still have the power and the privilege and can and will use it if it benefits them and that they have no real intention of giving this up.

Ooo...an anecdote, must be true across the board then...