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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Novak Djokovic saying women tennis players should receive less prize money than men

167 replies

sportinguista · 21/03/2016 12:30

Because they have less spectators apparently. Is it me or does this just devalue women's sport?

OP posts:
Mide7 · 21/03/2016 15:17

I said this on the other thread and it kind of goes with what treacle said. I think there is a vicious cycle with some women's sport, in as much as it doesn't get the expose and back because it's not as popular in terms of number but doesn't have the numbers because of lack of expose.

slug · 21/03/2016 15:19

Serena Williams gave a blistering reply to this. She pointed out that the women's final at the US Open sold out well before the men's final did.

The problem is that there is a bit of a circular argument going on. The women's game is 3 sets, the men's 5. This is not the fault of the women players as they did not set the rules. They are forced by the tennis association to play less than the men, who then complain that they shouldn't be paid as much. An obvious answer would be to either increase the women's game to 5 sets or reduce the men's to 3. Personally I'm in favour of the latter as the 5 set game is, quite frankly, boring.

The other issue here is the scheduling. Women's games are sheduled to fit in around the men's ones. The last match of any competition is always the men's final. The assumption is the spectators will want to watch the men's game so, if you want to watch the women's game you have to be prepared to attend at odd hours. They make it quite difficult to be a fan of the women's game then complain when there are fewer crowds. It rather reminds me of this quote from Hitchiker's Guide To the Galaxy

“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

SpeakNoWords · 21/03/2016 15:20

What all this discussion of the length of matches, the ability to draw audiences etc boils down to, is the assertion that womens sport can only exist if it can match the popularity of mens sport. The problem with this is that it isn't a level playing field, and too many people don't value womens sport as a good thing in itself. Attitudes to female sports stars are crappy, and attidudes to women taking part in sport generally are also crappy - hence the need for the ThisGirlCan series of adverts. Coverage of womens sport in the media is crappy - "sports" pages of newspapers may as well be called "men's sports" for all the coverage of women that you see. Male sportstars are idolised and lionised in popular culture, women rarely so. and so on and so on. Perhaps women should just accept that womens sport is not valuable or worthy and just give it up. Djokovic would presumably be thrilled, as well as that misogynistic sod running the Indian Wells tournament.

crappymummy · 21/03/2016 15:27

at no point did Djokovic say anything negative about women players, women's tennis, or women generally. He did not belittle them.

An actual quote is

He said: “Obviously it’s a very delicate situation. Women deserve respect and admiration for what they are doing. You know, equal prize money was the main subject of the tennis world in the last seven, eight years. I have been through that process as well so I understand how much power and energy WTA and all the advocates for equal prize money have invested in order to reach that.

“I applaud them for that, I honestly do. They fought for what they deserve and they got it. On the other hand I think that our men’s tennis world, ATP world, should fight for more because the stats are showing that we have much more spectators on the men’s tennis matches. I think that’s one of the reasons why maybe we should get awarded more. Women should fight for what they think they deserve and we should fight for what we think we deserve."

you may disagree, but point out the misogyny please

msrisotto · 21/03/2016 15:28

Sure, it's the part where he said that the men should be paid more than the women because they're men.

Lweji · 21/03/2016 15:30

What he's saying is I'm not being a misogynist, but I think men deserve more pay.

As in, I'm not racist, but whites deserve better pay.

I would really like to see as much media coverage given to female games and female games played at prime times and then see if male games still attract better audiences.

crappymummy · 21/03/2016 15:32

sorry I thought he was suggesting it was because the men's game generates more revenue

Please could you direct me to his quote where he says men should be paid more, because they are men?

MiniMover · 21/03/2016 15:33

I'd like to see the likes of Federer and Murray coming out against this. Both fathers of daughters. Surely this cannot sit well with them.

crappymummy · 21/03/2016 15:34

players for Manchester United are paid more than those for tranmere rovers

I wonder why?

msrisotto · 21/03/2016 15:37

Here:

I think that our men’s tennis world, ATP world, should fight for more because the stats are showing that we have much more spectators on the men’s tennis matches. I think that’s one of the reasons why maybe we should get awarded more.

Are you pretending not to see it?
Men would only generate more revenue because men's sport is valued more highly than women's sport. Why do you think that might be?

SpeakNoWords · 21/03/2016 15:37

crappymummy ...

What you're getting at is that women's sport is less valuable than men's sport, ostensibly because it attracts less of an audience. Ever wonder why it attracts less of an audience? Do you think that women's sport is as worthwhile as men's, or do you think that because men are larger and stronger, only their sport is worthwhile?

MiniMover · 21/03/2016 15:38

Hang on, Crappymummy, is that what he actually said??? BBC news was less clear on that. He sounds like he's saying the men should get more than they're currently getting ie a larger % of the revenue from the organisers. Not that he thinks they should receive more than the woman. It reads as if he's saying players should get more but that the ATP should fight for the men's game like the women's advocates fight for theirs. Confused Confused

MiniMover · 21/03/2016 15:40

Ok, mrsrisotto, that quote sounds more in line with the BBC. Blush

crappymummy · 21/03/2016 15:43

sorry I read it as the men's game brings in more revenue so maybe they should be paid more as a result

it does not say or imply men are better, or should be paid more because they are men

crappymummy · 21/03/2016 15:46

Msrisotto's quote is excerpted from the longer one I gave, which was taken from the guardian

It would be an interesting discussion re:what he actually said- there are many important themes there, how is pay decided in sport, how should it be decided

Maybe it is more interesting for posters to pretend he shat on a picture of martina navrtilova while yelling women's tennis sucks Confused

SpeakNoWords · 21/03/2016 15:48

"Maybe it is more interesting for posters to pretend he shat on a picture of martina navrtilova while yelling women's tennis sucks"

what on earth are you on about? His comments are irritating because he is completely ignoring the fact that there is not a level playing field in this popularity contest. Unless you think that society's attitude to women's sport is exactly the same as men's sports?

GreatBritishBakeOff · 21/03/2016 15:49

MiniMover, I don't think that's what he's saying. Let's fill in the blanks...

"Obviously it’s a very delicate situation. Women deserve respect and admiration for what they are doing. (But I'm not going to give them it)

You know, equal prize money was the main subject of the tennis world in the last seven, eight years. (I'm so bored of this subject)

I have been through that process as well so I understand how much power and energy WTA and all the advocates for equal prize money have invested in order to reach that. (because, you know, I'm a woman and fought for equal pay...)

“I applaud them for that, I honestly do. They fought for what they deserve and they got it.
(women deserve equal pay, but...)

On the other hand I think that our men’s tennis world, ATP world, should fight for more because the stats are showing that we have much more spectators on the men’s tennis matches. (more spectators than the women)

I think that’s one of the reasons why maybe we should get awarded more. (than women)

Women should fight for what they think they deserve and we should fight for what we think we deserve." (which is more than women players)

It strikes of some are more equal then others to me.

treaclesoda · 21/03/2016 15:49

But on the one hand he congratulates the women on campaigning for better pay and on the other he immediately says they don't deserve it. In the sense that now that they earn what the men do, it's time the men got more.

crappymummy · 21/03/2016 15:51

I find it distasteful that people are incapable of discussing what he actually said, but rather prefer what they are projecting- quite literally, and in bolded font in some cases

It is not a level playing field. So, how should Djokovic go about ensuring that women's sports receive the same coverage as men's?

treaclesoda · 21/03/2016 15:52

There is so much more to it than just 'men get more spectators'. Do they get more spectators because people want to see people hit the ball harder? Or because the matches are longer and people want the most possible tennis for their ticket price? Do they get their matches scheduled on the courts with the most spectator seats? Are they in the evening/weekend when more spectators can attend? There are some many possibilities.

VestalVirgin · 21/03/2016 15:53

Don't they already pay women less, anyway? I am not interested in sports, but I am sure male soccer players are paid much, much, much more than female soccer players, despite all they all do is chase after some ball.

The suggesting of giving women even LESS than what they currently get, is misogynistic, plain and simple.

Sports do not generate any material value, so one could ask why male players are paid so much to begin with.
While such is the nature of capitalism, we should oppose governments that sponsor men's sports, wasting the taxpayer's money. (Not only by buying the rights to show soccer matches on TV, but also by not requiring those who earn the money with soccer to pay for the massive police force needed to keep peace during the matches)

Mide7 · 21/03/2016 15:54

I agree with what your saying crappymum but also agree women's sport should be valued more.

I can see Djokovic's point in as much as if I brought in more money for my company I would expect to be paid more than someone who made less money.

msrisotto · 21/03/2016 15:55

That we're even having this discussion pisses me off, I mean god forbid women are actually treated equally with men?!

Lweji · 21/03/2016 15:56

He's annoyed because in tennis women have managed to get equal prize money.
But he feels he deserves more.
Because he (Ah!) attracts more viewers.

Maybe he's right, now that Sharapova is out.

It doesn't matter how golden he's made the pill, it's still hard to swallow.

SpeakNoWords · 21/03/2016 15:57

crappymummy Djokovic stated that because (in his opinion) men get bigger audiences than the women, they should be paid more than the women. He completely failed to address the reasons why the men attract higher audiences, or even if they actually do. He is assuming a level playing field, which just isn't the case. This has been pointed out on the thread, along with the fact that there is a vicious circle wrt attitudes and audiences. One way to tackle this inequality is to pay the women the same as the man, to show that the two are valued the same, at least monetarily by the event organisers. What do you think about those points?