Reported workmen harassing women - it was taken seriously...

[Notmymonkeys]

...so why do I feel like I'm making a fuss about nothing?

We're having work done on our roof starting tomorrow. The scaffolding went up on Saturday, but they came back today to put a sign up and finish a few bits and pieces. I arrived home while they were working.

I parked my car across the street, and as I had a fair bit of baggage and a baby, it took me a little while to get out of the car. I noticed one of the workmen say something to a woman passing by, who looked a bit embarrassed and kept walking. Then as I was crossing the road they shouted something at another two women passing by. I walked toward the gate, and one of them turned to me and started to say something (it's unlikely they would have recognised me as I wasn't around much on Saturday). I cut him off with my best 'teacher' glare and told him to please stop harassing women outside my house.

He denied he had done it, said he was just talking to his mate, I (shaking) put my key in the lock and went inside, slamming the door behind me. I could hear them banging about outside for another half hour, and I just felt horrible. Vulnerable and scared and sad

Anyway, I called DP to have a rant. He said it was totally out of order, and called the roofer, who completely agreed, and called the scaffolding company, who also agreed and promised that they took it very seriously and would deal with it. The roofer is on his way here to apologise to me in person.

So all the (men) I have reported this to have taken this seriously and been very clear that they consider it unacceptable and have dealt with it. Which is great.

So why do I feel like a silly little girl making a fuss about nothing?

Patriarchy really does a number on us doesn't it?

[cailindana]

Well done for reporting it.

I think it's hard to speak up about things like this, not just because we've been socialised not to, but also because we like to believe the men around us (our brothers, DHs, dads, friends) are "not like that." In fact, believing that misogyny is "out there" rather than right next to us, living with us, is the only way to keep positive about the world we live in. And yet, it's often when we mention these sorts of things to the men around us that we realise they are misogynistic on some level, they don't "get it," they will dismiss our experiences. And that, in many ways, is more disappointing and more disheartening than the original experience.

So, when you're gearing up to speak up to a man about something like this, you are facing into the very real possibility that he'll shrug and tell you you're overreacting, and that you will be forced to face the face the fact that he doesn't value your feelings - that he considers the right of a scaffolder to shout at people in the street more important than your sense of safety and dignity.

Luckily your lovely DP did get it, as did the roofer. It was an excellent result for you and I hope you draw courage from it.

[SirChenjin]

Many people, men and women, avoid confrontation

YY to this. Although I completely agree that this form of intimidation is usually male to female, I have witnessed some hideous overtly-sexualised and aggressive behaviour from women to men. I think most people find this type of intimidation (esp. when it's sexual) hard to deal with, as it's claimed to be 'just a laugh'.

[Lottapianos]

The writer Bidisha had first hand experience of this kind of minimising some time ago. She was walking down the street when a man yelled 'slag!' at her. She was shaken up and furious about this so she shared the story with a few people she knew - all of them thought she should get over it basically

However, she made the point that if the man had shouted 'Paki!' at her instead, not a single person would have told her to get over it and all would have been horrified on her behalf. Why should sexual harassment be taken any less seriously than racial harassment? Women like you, OP, are helping to change this with your small but incredibly important acts.

[Lottapianos]

'Also I'm sure they would have listened to you as well, let's not inset possible sexism into things when there's enough already'

You can't possibly be sure of that fluffling. I hope it would be the case but you can't be sure of it.

[purplemurple1]

I work in construction and these things are taken very seriously now, and is normally a sackable offence (at least for the larger contractors). I've only known of one compalint that didn't lead to being sacked as the builder was 16 as was the girl and eveyone agreed (her included) that he had walked up to her and asked her out, as opposed to shouting etc. Once they knew the full story, her parents asked for him not to be sacked for it, so he got a warning instead.

Everyone should complain if it happens.

[Lottapianos]

'I work in construction and these things are taken very seriously now'

That's really good to hear purple

[Itsfab]

"Patriarchy really does a number on us doesn't it?"

I don't think it is fair to say that given you have reported it to a man who then complained to another man and it is all being dealt with, with a man coming to apologise in person. Deep down you don't believe it is okay. Next time someone does this you should be able to stand up immediately as the world does not end when someone is pulled up on their bad behaviour.

[Notmymonkeys]

purple that is interesting. Not what I would have expected, I'm glad though!

itsfab I think what I was trying to say is that this incident has left me feeling like underneath all my layers of feminism, it turns out I have absorbed all the patriarchal messages after all. I think that's what I feel most crap about. It's not a matter of whether or not I should have reported it, it's that despite firmly believing that I was right to do so, I still feel uncomfortable about it. Like I probably really was just making a fuss about nothing and I should 'get over it'.

[messyisthenewtidy]

Hmmm I'm not sure I agree Itsfab because patriarchy is strong enough for even feminists to have internalised these messages. When you think of the times that we have been asked "are you sure that's what they meant" or "they only meant to be nice" it's no wonder OP feels that she has internalised enough of patriarchy to doubt her own reactions.

Take the islamic law in some places of two female witnesses being needed in place of one man's. Or the historical twelve white men on a jury. Even though the vast majority of men here and now would disagree with those laws, the mere existence of them takes a hold on women's psyche and self-belief.

Which shows the importance of challenging harmful cultural practices like this one. It slowly changes what people see as socially acceptable. 30 years ago OP's DH, the construction company and any man she complained to would have told her to get a grip. But not any more and that's a good thing.

I like to think that 20 years ago when I marched up to a builder and challenged him for asking me to suck his cock, even though he laughed it off at the time, he slowly started to think "hey maybe not all women like it" and that his younger colleagues that were watching took note in a small way.

[messyisthenewtidy]

Sorry OP didn't mean to diss your OP there. He sounds lovely

[SevenZarkSeven]

I remember when a load of initiatives came out from major construction companies around builders not harrassing / wolf whistling etc at women and girls, and they had phone number to call if it happened IIRC - this is going back a long way!

certainly where I live it doesn't seem to happen any more - although I am no longer a schoolgirl / young woman so whether that has played a part in my perception of things changing I don't know.

What is true though is that while many larger firms it's clear who you could complain to, with smaller outfits it's not at all. So assuming OP doesn't have a sign on her house saying who is doing the work, how would the women who walked past know who to complain to? They would either need to confront the men there and then (requiring a high level of confidence etc and feeling up to it at the time) or possibly knock on the door to tell the householder and let's be honest who's going to do that!!!

So it's all a bit hit and miss. Is what I'm getting at!

[scallopsrgreat]

Itsfab, as well as what the previous posters have said about her feelings around this and patriarchy instilling those feelings, may be Notmymonkeys will feel more confident about reporting it next time. Or may be she'll feel more intimidated. Or may be someone won't listen next time. Or may be there will be no-one to report it to and she would have to retort to the harasser himself (which could be dangerous and more intimidating).

But may be those men on the roof doing the harassing will think twice about it next time. It is their behaviour that needs modifying, not the OPs. It isn't up to the OP to have to stand up to every incident of sexual harassment she encounters.

[SevenZarkSeven]

Oh and I meant to say this as well:

"Next time someone does this you should be able to stand up immediately as the world does not end when someone is pulled up on their bad behaviour."

Well no because we all do a quick risk assessment right and the outcome of that risk assessment is part of the reason people don't say something there and then.

So actually the world won't end but you might get a volley of abuse / called every name under the sun / approached aggressively by one or more of the men / threatened with violence or sexual violence or actually attacked.

So actually it's not as simple as "just tell them off" the people doing it are doing it to intimidate and if you front up to them who knows where it will end. Unrealistic to expect eg a 12yo schoolgirl to "stand up" to a group of men who have shouted threatening stuff at her.

[WillkommenBienvenue]

I don't think it matters if it's hit and miss - the story of 'the time when x said xxx to that woman whose house we were working on' will get round, will spread on the builder's grapevine. This is how cultures really change. Laws help of course.

[SevenZarkSeven]

It's a bit hit and miss as to whether there is anyone you can realistically complain to is what I meant.

Not that there's no point in doing it when you can!

[TeaForTara]

OP you are absolutely right that women are STILL made to feel bad, or as if they are being ridiculous / making a mountain out of a molehill, for complaining about something like this. And it is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

To the posters saying "they could have been asking directions or the time" - have a word with yourselves! These men were up scaffolding on the side of a house, shouting down to women walking past in the street (but not men.) You are being apologists for them and should be ashamed.

[messyisthenewtidy]

Seven, totally! It's incredible how a so-called compliment can turn into a tirade of hatred when you challenge it.

[Notmymonkeys]

Tea yes exactly. And more. Even though I got all this validation when I complained, from men no less (not dp, I expected him to validate how I felt and be appalled, but the others), I still feel that maybe I was making a fuss over nothing and I should have put up with it!

I am shaking my head at my own ridiculousness here!

[IdealistAndProudOfIt]

As a fellow sufferer from age 12 or so, you are not making a fuss over nohing and thank you very much, on all our behalfs. And our daughters.

It is incredibly difficult to live in a culture and not absorb the messages from that culture. As someone exposed repeatedly that goes double. Even if you consciously reject it, thoroughly and whole-heartedly, part of your brain still remembers. That is not to excuse the lad culture in britain btw, just don't be too hard on yourself.

[SevenZarkSeven]

It's interesting that recently the idea that lots of "normal" men have no idea of the extent of all this stuff is coming out.

And if you tell one of them some of it they are really shocked!

O course most of us never tell anyone any of this stuff, or if we do we are told to shut up. Not sure how that ties in with the amount of ones who are shocked though but there seems to be something there.

So I think women and girls getting it "out there" how much of this shit goes on might help to rally the ones who aren't arseholes to say it's not acceptable? Dunno.

[SevenZarkSeven]

Is it that most of us tell females, who have in turn consumed the message of society to minimise / put up with it etc and so the message gets passed on.

Along with the reactions of the men who do it, if you do react.

I wouldn't dreamt of telling a grown-up man when stuff happened to me when I was young. So maybe all the "normal" ones just have no idea about the extent of all this stuff.

Just thinking out loud here really.

[Nojacketrequired]

So I think women and girls getting it "out there" how much of this shit goes on might help to rally the ones who aren't arseholes to say it's not acceptable? Dunno.

So maybe all the "normal" ones just have no idea about the extent of all this stuff.

Yes and no. Many of us have managed to grow up and go about our lives without wolf-whistling, shouting down the street or belittling women. It has had a part in popular culture - I'm thinking of Sid James and the Carry On films, for example (which I still love). But finally there is a realisation that it is wrong. At the very least it is showing off, at worst is is threatening and intimidating. I'd imagine a lot of blokes think it's harmless fun. But like any other act, once you realise it is upsetting or harmful to someone, you stop. It isn't hard to keep your mouth shut.

[ZombiePuffinsAreREAL]

Well done Monkeys! Have you posted on everyday sexism? I suspect they will love that something was actually done about it.

It's so difficult isn't it? There seem to be some men who honestly believe that women are there to be decorative and for their amusement and pleasure, don't there? Most of them will be annoying, but essentially harmless, some of them will be predatory. The problem for women is how to tell them apart, which means that if we concront them we have to accept that their is a possibility that we're not just going to get more banter, but actual abuse/violence instead.

There's also something around it being such a 'normal' thing for women to have to cope with that we minimise it. Taking it further does seem like such a faff for such a small thing, but it really isn't. So you're right, patriarchy does do a number on us.

[YonicScrewdriver]

Thanks NotMy and your DH.