OK, everyone, Conchita.....

[Martorana]

........please tell this ancient 70s feminist what to think.

[VashtaNerada]

Might have been me Briar - I hadn't realised she was a drag act, thought she was trans.

[CrotchMaven]

Yes, yes, yes to the male gaze. That's what's been itching in my brain.

And this is how subversive it is - when there are threads on here about the trend for young women to wear lots of make up etc, there is always at least one post saying they look like men in drag. That's how rare men performing this type of femininity is, in this country, at least. But, of course, it's not about here, so I understand my jadedness is not universal.

This performance isn't really about smashing gender norms, though, is it? I can't see more men taking paternity leave or more women with pcos embracing their body hair on the back of it. And, yes, if it were Tom performing, I would probably have a slightly different viewpoint.

[SauceForTheGander]

special no you weren't.

It was interesting on twitter last night. The act was being celebrated as a triumph for trans women. However some trans women were not supportive and very angry as this was a drag act.

Some feminists were angry about describing Conchita / Tom as a "she" - as is like saying Pauline Calf is a woman. No, it's a man adopting persona of a woman to perform an act,

Like you OP I'm still thinking.

[StandsOnGoldenSands]

Very interesting point about the performance of femininity in the male gaze, ezinma.

Am also interested in the points people have made about the difference between drag and trans. I remember a thread a while ago where drag got a real pasting (including from me I should add). Would really like to further discuss how trans fits into it all because I feel as though I don't know enough about it.

[ezinma]

WhentheRed: I share your ambivalence, but I think the relation of drag to femininity is supposed to be ambivalent. (The relation of both to being a woman is another matter.) The beard just seems to draw a big red line under that. Framing Conchita's drag in terms of its "progressiveness" seems to me to be a question that implies its own answer. I don't think that's what she's trying to do.

if I overdo the make-up, glitz, etc., I risk being told I look like a drag queen. Drag, therefore, can be a limiter to how women can dress.

That sounds to me like a socially 'acceptable' way of saying you have failed to walk the tightrope of femininity in the manner that patriarchy deems suitable for a woman of your age. Surely the limiter is patriarchy, rather than drag? I've been told I look like a courtesan. Different comparison, same disciplinary intention.

[CailinDana]

If a beautiful "womanly" (as in, long hair, boobs, slim waist) woman sang in a manly-looking tux but with high heels people would just think "Oh, smart, but maybe a bit boxy for her figure," ie it would be totally unremarkable and the focus would likely be on how she was covering up her feminine assets by "dressing like a man." At most it would be seen as a poor choice of fashion.

But for a clearly "manly" (ie bearded) man to dress like a woman, and show off a "womanly" figure is "brave" and remarkable. Why?

Because IMO women are lesser beings. The markings of "woman" - tight dresses, high heels, make up - mark you out as being of that lesser group. For a man to wear those marking is beneath his dignity - he is opening himself up to ridicule. He has come down off his manly pedestal and is wearing the clownish gear of the silly female.

For me a man wearing women's clothes and expecting adulation and praise for it is like a monarch digging a ditch and expecting to be seen as oh so benevolent and "down with the people." Playing at being a certain person and expecting recognition for it is incredibly patronising to that person.

Women have no choice in being women. We don't get recognition for wearing make up and tight dresses, in fact it's just expected and if we don't do it, then we're "frumpy" and "letting ourselves go." We dig ditches for a living, so to speak, and for someone to take time out of their privileged life to "join in" in an oh-so-jolly way (but still while wearing their crown beard, so everyone is aware they're not actually a lowly ditch-digger) is fucking annoying.

[Mintyy]

I don't have much time for drag queens, so I was disappointed that this act won.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Jumping into the middle of the debate here, but ... I don't see how this is liberating for gay men.

Ten years ago, I remember a gay male friend of mine explaining how utterly depressing and shit it was to be gay and not remotely interested in being camp or in cross-dressing. Because when he was growing up, that's what being gay meant. I really thought we'd make progress here, and people would stop assuming 'oh, that man looks/acts 'feminine,' he must be gay. About five years ago it seemed people were starting to get it. And now it's all going backwards again.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Yes, I take your point too.

I'm mind-boggled by the persona thing ... sounds confusing!

[dreamingbohemian]

I don't think Conchita/Tom is brave for dressing like a woman. I think she's brave for adopting a gender-fluid persona that makes a whole range of people uncomfortable (including people who would be ok with a regular old drag queen) and for preaching a message of love and tolerance despite being very publicly condemned as a freak, even by senior politicians and such.

The idea of a stage persona is not odd at all. Beyonce has an alter ego called Sasha Fierce who she adopts whenever she goes on stage. It's just a way of releasing inhibitions and inspiring yourself mentally.

[Fideline987654321]

I grew up watching Danny LaRue on TV on a Saturday night, usually singing Hello Dolly with male back-up singers/dancers performing chivalrous acts for him. The message coming across clearly was Danny LaRue was a real lady. Given the cultural juxtaposition of 70s feminism, the mainstreaming of that type of drag performance was anti-progressive for women. Danny LaRue was more of a proper woman than those manly women's libbers. Luckily for me, my mother was one of the nasty women's libbers.

Yes. That is it exactly.

Almost an Uncle Tom thing. And also why the revelation that it was a drag act made it seem worse than viewing it as a trans woman who had kept her beard.

[FloraFox]

I don't like this act or acts like it. We, as women, as expected to be thrilled that a man is performing a reactionary version of femininity that we are expected to perform every day. I agree with the queen/ditch digging analogy. And adopting that performance that we are trying to get away from is what makes him a "lady". No, no, no.

[ezinma]

The markings of "woman" - tight dresses, high heels, make up - mark you out as being of that lesser group. For a man to wear those markings is beneath his dignity - he is opening himself up to ridicule. He has come down off his manly pedestal and is wearing the clownish gear of the silly female.

Then why does he do it? It's avoidable, so why expose himself to this ridicule (and often to the full force of other men's hostility and violence — the kind that women know so well)?

When a man wants to appropriate the markings of femininity, he threatens the powerful mythology that being part of the Club of Man is a great honour, worth defending at all costs. If wearing heels and make-up is not beneath his dignity, why should it be beneath any of theirs? Nobody in his right mind would voluntarily come down from a pedestal. Maybe there is no pedestal.

[grimbletart]

Excuse my cynicism but I can't see anything startling, brave, revolutionary or ground-breaking in this guy. He's a man in a frock seeking fame and money. End of.

[Martorana]

I think that's my problem. Conchita is not transgender. I don't think she is even a transvestite. She is the arguably racist alter ego of a male talent show winner who has cleverly found a way to monetize his talent. And, as I said,she is a "soft" focus for people to show how incredibly tolerant they are while actually doing nothing about making life easier for people who don't fit conventional sexual/gender norms.

However, her winning was a marker for the homophobic countries who tried to have her banned. So maybe the larger political point in this case is more important than the smaller.

[StandsOnGoldenSands]

I just googled the slang for 'conchita' and was surprised and also disappointed tbh.

[Martorana]

Ah. I wasn't going to mention her name. But since th can of worms has been opened, yes, Conchita . And Wurst? Really?

[StandsOnGoldenSands]

Oh sorry! I was just curious. And surprised. And then not surprised. And then a bit sad really.

[Martorana]

No, I think it's important. I didn't mention it because for all I know it's now entirely appropriate for an entertainer intending to make a serious political point to be called Cunt Cock. I am older than the hills, so know nothing. Nobody else seems to be mentioning it...........

[StandsOnGoldenSands]

Maybe nobody else speaks passing Spanish ...
I'm not exactly hip with the kids myself though. As has already been mentioned, with the pornification of popular culture anything seems to go these days ....