OK, everyone, Conchita.....

[Martorana]

........please tell this ancient 70s feminist what to think.

[Fideline987654321]

Crotch is right. Lovely pointless gesture that enables everyone to feel warm and tolerant and self-congratulatory. Very little actually acheived.

[YeGodsAndLittleFishes]

Hasn't conchita had a sex change? So that is what her appearance is about, and that is what the song is about. The Eurovision song contest is won or lost on the gay vote these, and they voted for someone who is transexual because a lot of gay people (who get together for Eurovision parties) know people who are transexual and know how tough it is for them to deal with being wrongly judged for outward appearances everyday.

[exexpat]

No, Conchita has not had a sex change. She is the drag persona of a gay man called Tom Neuwirth, who as far as I know has no intention of changing sex, so is not a transgender woman. (If she had had a sex change, the hormone treatment would have put paid to the magnificent beard)

[thecatfromjapan]

You know, you could argue that the glittery dress and the "femininity" were a nod to the ur-space of "drag" as an originating ground of (male) gender experimentation (and actually as a space where men who didn't fit in with the gender norms imposed in a homosexual scene could perfom) rather than being about reinforcing norms of femininity. The beard, on the other hand, takes it all elsewhere, and (for me) closer to what rachelmonday describes.

I, genuinely, don't know what I think about all this drag and femininity any more - I think I am too angry about the bunch of porn-referencing videos I saw on a music channel the other night. Drag's image of femininity just seems benign and hopelessly outdated now. It makes me realise that politics moves and changes, and discourses have to change with them. The femininity referenced in drag? Do we still feel disempowered by it, beholden to it, judged by it? Or do we have a different kind of threatening femininity now?

As to trans people (who were born biologically male) taking women's spaces/power? I don't know. I think I'd rather deal with that if and when it happens. Because it really might not happen at all. I remember reading a poster on mn very carefully and thoughtfully engaging with the "cis" debate and I found it thought-provoking. But I really don't know what I think yet.

Personally, I am quite alarmed by Russia's attacks on social and political rights of various groups. I did take this vote to be two fingers to all that. (And I guess the whole Ukraine thing is a factor too.) I know it's a tiny thing, Eurovision, but it was quite pleasant. The rise of this attacking of the rights of sexual minorities is going hand in hand with the erosion of women's full political subject-hood (I would say that the pronification of culture in the so-called progessive political states erodes our full subject-hood) and seems to be a feature of our modern world.

I know it's not an either/or but I think I find the pornificatied femininity far more threatening than the hyper-femininity of drag. I found Poland's contribution unsettling,frankly.

[exexpat]

This is quite a good blog (from the gay male perspective) on the significance of Conchita etc: Eurovision Triumph

[BriarRainbowshimmer]

As to all this "a kick in the pants for the homophobes!" stuff... we don't even have confirmation that the guy is gay.
No, but the homophobes hate when men aren't performing stereotypical masculinity. That's gay! See here: www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/eurovision-2014-russian-politician-who-called-stephen-fry-sick-brands-contest-sodom-show-9315516.html

Are hairy women going to be accepted without comment now?
Nope, unfeminine women are still the most unacceptable people. Not pleasing the male gaze/not glamorous enough.

it would have made more of a statement if she had entered as Tom Neuwirth and been referred to as he and still dressed like that.
Absolutely agree.

[thecatfromjapan]

Sorry, I really should not have thrown the trans angle in. It was because someone had mentioned the worry about women and space, which I sometimes think underlies a lot of our hesitations and concerns (if "we" have them).

Mantorana I really can't tell you what to think, because I really don't know myself.

I know I was quite pleased, to be honest. I liked the alt songs, myself. Especially the country and western one. But it's never been about the songs, really, has it? Well, not entirely.

[thecatfromjapan]

As far as hairy women and politics goes, I am still thrilled that Julia Roberts appeared with hairy armpits. Which demonstrates, I think, how far we have to go on that score ...

[BriarRainbowshimmer]

I walked out when Poland performed. They weren't trying to appeal to women that's for sure.

[YeGodsAndLittleFishes]

Thanks exexpat so conchita is a drag queen, and the beard is a part of the act/show/character/etc.

So it's about politics. Russia and other places who discriminate based on appearances and sexual orientation.

[thecatfromjapan]

I liked that link, exexpat.

I think I like the writer's vision of what the Eurovision vote gave us (if only for a moment, and if only amongst the Eurovision-watchers): an idea of Europe as a liberal, progressive hegemony of difference and possibility.

I don;t know about you lot, but I think that is a feeling that can do you good, and give you a lift to push on forwards.

[OiYou]

I'm not set on how I think about Conchita, but one thing is that it'd feel more like a true statement on gender roles etc if she hadn't had fake boobs and pinched in belt making a false waist. If the beard was simply to highlight, look, I'm male and I can wear dresses and make up and have long hair if I like, then that message is lessened by the need to make her body look female.

I really like posthocs comment. That's how I feel. Eddie Izzard will say he isn't a man in a woman's dress the way women arent in "man's trousers".

He is a man who wears an article of clothing that some people just happen to see as feminine.

If Tom had just been Tom because who happens to like pretty dresses fair enough. But the modeling the body to look female changes it.

[ezinma]

I'm still trying to work out who benefits from this proclaimed step forward in acceptance of gender diversity.

It's only a pop contest. The media have to attribute Meaning and Significance, in the way that Mo Farah was not just a man who's good at running but a beacon for post-racial Britain. In reality, it's just a feelgood story — a story that allows us to look past our own heterosexism or racism for the duration of the narrative.

What is easier for anyone to do today than yesterday?

Wear a beard with a dress?

It's important to separate material from discursive progress here. Conchita's success may make a small contribution to a changing culture of trans visibility and acceptance. She certainly didn't seem to lose votes for her gender presentation. Whether and how that translates into material progress for LGBT people is not going to be determined by one song from a Mitteleuropean drag act.

[dreamingbohemian]

I guess those of you wondering when a butch lesbian will win eurovision missed serbia's win a few years back:

www.eurovision.tv/page/multimedia/videos?id=44433

(disclaimer: butch by eurovision standards!)

As for what real difference Conchita's win will make -- I don't think people should be so pessimistic. Obviously, for real political and social change to happen, you need norms and values in society at large to change first and thus embrace real change.

Look at gay marriage in the US. Just ten years ago, the remote possibility of gay marriage was enough to bring conservatives out in droves to vote for George Bush. Now it's being legalised everywhere. That change happened pretty quickly and it was because the public at large was more accepting. Pop culture played a role in that.

I think the future is all about gender fluidity and breaking down social constructs that force people into one gender or the other. So this is an important event in getting people to think about this idea and embrace it.

[DonkeySkin]

I find the pornificatied femininity far more threatening than the hyper-femininity of drag

Hmm, it's true that drag feels rather quaint and almost cuddly now, whereas once feminists condemned it as frankly misogynist. I don't think it's a victory for women that it's been rendered so by the mainstreaming of even more blatantly misogynist imagery.

Even though drag queens do reinforce ideas about 'women' being fake and constructed, I'm not bothered by people/characters like Tom/Conchita. I'm just relieved, frankly, that he's not claiming his feelings or his appropriation of stereotypical feminine dress codes actually make him a woman. We are now dealing with a whole different level of misogyny from trans activism, which says that males are really, truly, existentially and biologically (!) female if they say they are.

And they are invading women's spaces, everywhere, from feminist groups to women's shelters to prisons. Trans activists are even claiming that it's offensive for women to refer to pregnancy and reproductive rights as 'women's issues', because this erases trans people. Never mind that the politics being pushed by trans activists erases women as a meaningful class of persons, and says instead that 'woman' exists only as a performance of femininity or a feeling in someone's head.

[dreamingbohemian]

Also -- I think Conchita/Tom has an amazing voice, a gracious personality and an amazing amount of courage, all good things to see in a winner.

I saw she had her own Susan Boyle moment on Austrian TV a few years ago, with the crowd starting out laughing and ending up in a standing ovation. Quite touching:

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WmL7m0by4UQ

[thecatfromjapan]

" a story that allows us to look past our own heterosexism or racism for the duration of the narrative"

I thought this was really interesting (it was posted by enzima, but I'm not addressing this to enzima in particular).

So, this is what I'm thinking: Every day of my life, I want to be anti-heterosexist and anti-racist. I would like to live an anti-racist, anti-hetwrosexist life. I'd like to oppose these things, and eventually bring about a state where it is no longer necessary to oppose these things.

Instead, I have to live a life that is, actually, often on the receiving end of racism and heterosexism - and straightforward sexism). It's depressing and actually debilitating.

Ironically, even though I have been on the pointed end of the heterosexist and racist stick, I have also been - unwillingly, inadvertently - been involved in systems of "dishing it out" or benefitting, receiving privilege from these hetwrosexist and racist practices and structures.

Ny opportunity for resistance is actually quite limited: one of the joys of a democratic society ...

I think this makes me think that people voting and watching are taking pleasure in this are not completely negligible. Those acts are not entirely nothing, they are acts of some kind. For some, they may represent a rare opportunity of making their allegiances and beliefs visible.

Obviously, it is less immediately effective than a piece of legislation rescinding the anti-gay legislation in Russia. But in that, I think, we have part of the reason that a proxy protest has been made at the Eurovision. (And I think I don't totally subscrie to the old left base/superstructure, with culture as some sort of playground where silly people fart around doing nothing much, division anyway.)

And I also agree with dreamingbohemian.

[Lottapianos]

I'm not bothered by Conchita at all. I think long hair, make up, nails, earrings, beard are just versions of the same thing - things that you grow or apply because you like the way they look and the way they make you feel. All forms of drag I guess. Although I agree with other posters that it would have made more of a statement if he had performed as Tom

[dreamingbohemian]

I agree with you too cat -- culture is a very important arena for social change. It often takes years to see tangible results but that's not the same as saying things have no impact.

[thecatfromjapan]

I don't know anything about the trans issue in current women's paces. Having children effectively fucked my capacity to engage in anything other than a very minimal participation in anything other than mumsnet!

I would definitely like to learn more about this - even though it sounds enormously painful at the level of identity.

[Bunbaker]

"It's great to see Europe showing such a positive attitude towards someone who is visibly different.
It just seems to me to be an opportunity for people to pat themselves on the back for being tolerant in a nice safe not actually having to do anything about it sort of way."

I wonder how many people still see Conchita just as a man with a beard in drag without reading all sorts of other implications into it.

The song was dull. If it had been a better song I would have wanted it to win regardless of who sang it.

[Nocomet]

All I know is his winning with a mesage of love and tolerance made my dyslexic quirky and often given a hard time DD1 smile on the eve of her GCSEs.

(Felt rather sorry for the poor almost her age Russian girls, it's not there fault Putin is a homophobic bully)

[ezinma]

Great post(s), thecatfromjapan. I absolutely agree about the constraints on the spaces we have to express our support and sympathies. I'm with you on the base/superstructure argument, though I wonder how many of those who voted for Conchita would take a transgender applicant seriously in a job that did not take place on a stage. Perhaps I'd be pleasantly surprised.

The popularity of Conchita together with the Polish entry has me wondering cynically again if people just enjoy seeing femininity being performed. The content of that femininity seems to be secondary — transgressive or emphasised, campy, heartfelt or titillating, it's above all a thing to be entertained by. Sure, it's a song contest: entertainment is the goal. But the vote for Poland reminds me how thoroughly it's framed through a male gaze, in the oh-so-male language of irony, as a daft, glitzy anachronism, with men as the commentator, the organiser, and two of the three presenters.

[specialsubject]

was I the only one thinking 'Kenny Everett'???

good singer but bored with the song after a minute.

[BriarRainbowshimmer]

I don't see the connection between Conchita winning and transgender, this is a drag artist not someone living as a trans person.

Agree about the femininity stuff ezinma
I also felt sorry for the Russian sisters whose song was a message about peace (!)