OK, everyone, Conchita.....

[Martorana]

........please tell this ancient 70s feminist what to think.

[VashtaNerada]

I don't think s/he is embracing femininity per se, I assumed the point to be (if there needs to be a point) that gender identity is complex, fluid and interesting.

[VashtaNerada]

Ooh good point about women with body hair - you're right, people would have been horrid.

[OiYou]

I was just depressed when dd (3 years) saw Conchita and asked if she was a monster.

She obviously has no concept of drag queens. She just saw a woman with a beard as a monster.

Here's to hoping the PCOS I have isn't genetic.

[Martorana]

Or if the "difference" was being a woman over 40. Or being Susan Boyle.

It just seems to me to be an opportunity for people to pat themselves on the back for being tolerant in a nice safe not actually having to do anything about it sort of way.

[VashtaNerada]

YY to Conchita's difference being 'safe' (within the confines of Eurovision obv!) and others who are 'different' not getting the same respect.

[WhereTheWildlingsAre]

I think this is an interesting read

To me, it's not about weather she is conforming to a stereotype but it is to do with presenting countries like Russia, with their homophobic laws, with an in your face performance to deal with. The mix gender image accepted and broadcast across the world. Brilliant!

[BriarRainbowshimmer]

I like that he had a beard and wore make-up and a dress with it.
The fact that he doesn't pretend to be anything else than male (the illusion is ruined by the beard) seems the make the homophobes panic so I'm glad he won. Pretty nice song.
Perhaps this can lead the way to more men being fabulous on stage without wearing "drag".

[LostInWales]

I don't think I am very good at typing my thoughts out, I am a much better talker, I just think that what I am trying to say is, 'Conchita' is a beautiful woman, with the make up and lipgloss and false eyelashes, if you don't see the beard it's a very conventionally beautiful female face. Then there is the attractive man face there too (beard made more 'manly' and full with beard thickening product) and he had a very good looking man face. Then both of them together, it made me look and think, then go away and think and look at everything some more about what is attractive and why such a face was so startling. It was quite a challenging image IYSWIM. Nothing, nothing like the interesting Polish ladies miming sex acts with milk churns at all, there was no hidden message in that performance.

[BriarRainbowshimmer]

Conchita was indeed performing femininity very well and looked very pretty. At the same time, he is male. Perhaps that is why he got so much support. I wonder if a not sterotypically pretty butch lesbian would get so much support.

[Martorana]

Kicking the Russian homophobes in the teeth is undeniably a good thing. But it's not exactly subversive, is it? (Yes, yes, I know it's Eurovision!) And I'm not sure how I would feel about it if I was a gay man, either......

(My IPad autocorrected homophobes to homophones.......)

[WhereTheWildlingsAre]

Subversive in Eurovision terms would have been voting a genuinely good song like the Netherlands to win, a bit of country and western sung by people with talent...shocker!!

[exexpat]

I just had a quick flick through the voting results from some of the other countries, and Poland seems to have been pretty consistently in the top 5 from the public vote in most countries - I don't think that can all have been expat Poles voting for them, I think it was the European population of leering, groping, cat-calling get-your-tits-out lad-mag readers, unfortunately. There are a lot of them - just look at @everydaysexism.

The judging panels mostly put Poland very low down the rankings, which is why Poland didn't get any points at all from the UK, despite topping the popular vote. If it was all popular voting, Poland might well have won.

[LoveSardines]

I thought Conchita was pretty good (I thought the song wouldn't have been out of place as a Bond theme - had that vibe to it!) and one in the eye for russia / anyone else of that ilk is always good - see also the song the hosts did last time where they sang about how men looked after babies and gay people got married etc HA!

That doesn't prevent me from having fairly strong views around how detrimental it is for societies to have and enforce extremely narrow concepts of "masculinity" or "femininity" and then try and force people into them - and if you're not enough one then you "must" be the other and where that leaves people ie often a right unhappy mess.

[rachelmonday1]

Another fabulous thread on Mumsnet, full of relevant views and opinions from all sides.

The first I heard about Conchitta competing in Eurovision was on BBC Breakfast on Friday and I felt a mixture of extreme respect and slight sadness for her. The respect was due to the fact that, drag queen or not, she had the courage to go in front of millions of people and be to be herself. The sadness was because I feared a backlash of opinion that might totally go against her.

As a crossdresser myself, I have personally never experienced any backlash when out in public, but the I don't wear a beard. What Conchitta did was to say to all of those millions of people watching, there is gender diversity in this world and it's not a bad or wrong thing.

I'm not sure how many people were voting for the song or for Conchitta, but either way, I so many more people have a raised awareness of gender diversity because of her courage.

[Bue]

Glad someone posted about this. As a person, I like Conchita. She seems humble and quite sweet, if very over the top about it. And she is very attractive.

As a concept I'm but I don't know if I'm just outdated. Maybe because the whole concept of drag seems to make a mockery of women? I mean, it's completely unacceptable to dress in blackface now, so why is this celebrated for its "difference"? And I'm not talking about true transsexuality, which is a different beast entirely. Conchita is nothing more than a drag act.

As to all this "a kick in the pants for the homophobes!" stuff... we don't even have confirmation that the guy is gay. I mean I'd be gobsmacked if he wasn't, but still, do we actually know?

[CrotchMaven]

Does any of this really have anything meaningful to say about gender in a way that really moves society on? Are hairy women going to be accepted without comment now?

[StandsOnGoldenSands]

Interesting thread. Not sure how I feel either. I'm interested in the notion of 'performing femininity' in general - that it is an act, and whether people opting in to that are being offensive to women or not.
I think that the beard does make it qualitatively different to the 'classic' drag act, more just saying 'this is who I am and I take things from both femininity and masculinity', so that seems less like gender tourism to me.
But am very much still thinking about this.

[Fideline987654321]

On reflection, whilst happy that a blow has been struck for trans rights and a challenge made to gender norms, I am actually seriously pissed off that narrow societal expectations of female beauty were supported and reinforced in the process.

[PostHocErgoPropterHoc]

I'm not set on how I think about Conchita, but one thing is that it'd feel more like a true statement on gender roles etc if she hadn't had fake boobs and pinched in belt making a false waist. If the beard was simply to highlight, look, I'm male and I can wear dresses and make up and have long hair if I like, then that message is lessened by the need to make her body look female.

Also, the personal pronoun issue is tricky too. I understand she is a character being played by a man, and therefore is reasonable to refer to her as she. But again, it would have made more of a statement if she had entered as Tom Neuwirth and been referred to as he and still dressed like that.

[FoxSticks]

I agree this is an interesting thread. It's made me think more about it rather than accepting on face value. I dont think all drag acts are making a mockery of women. Some, where they are a emphasising supposedly bad qualities in women, ie nagging or jealousy may be. But Cinchita didn't appear to do this, it seemed she celebrated the beauty of women to me.

I think the most important thing I've taken from this thread is that Conchita seems inoffensive and a positive force in her own right, but other different groups of people wouldn't be treated the same as her. There are still inequalities because as you say, a butch lesbian, or an older woman or even an older unattractive overweight drag act would not have won with the same skng.

[spanky2]

Some women have beards! There was a woman on the TV who has got fed up with trying to remove her beard so has decided to leave it to grow. I think Conchita is a brilliant example of embracing who you are. Hungary and Poland were wildly innappropriate. I thought the Polish song was really mysogonistic. DH enjoyed the milkmaid. I mean really that is all you have to offer is squeezing your breasts together while pretending to churn butter? It turns women's right to equality into a joke.

[FoxSticks]

Song obviously

[exexpat]

Isn't 'Conchita' just a character, in the same way that Dame Edna Everage is a character? We all know it's a bloke underneath, but you would never talk about Dame Edna and 'his' trademark glasses or whatever.

The real Tom Neuwirth may not want to wear dresses in his own persona, Conchita is a character creation and she does wear dresses.

[PostHocErgoPropterHoc]

I know, but I feel the impact of whatever statement about gender roles is being made is lessened by that fact, compared to if a man simply dressed that way because he wanted to.

[CrotchMaven]

I'm still trying to work out who benefits from this proclaimed step forward in acceptance of gender diversity. What is easier for anyone to do today than yesterday?