Oh FFS. I am so sick of the gender invisibilisation that is going on around Jeremy Hunt's call for families to look after elders

[BasilBabyEater]

I'm listening to Jeremy Vine on R2 atm and there's this whole thing about how we as a society should look after elders, can we learn from Asian families etc. and the massive elephant in the room is not being mentioned - that when men talk about how "families" look after elders, what they mean is, the women in the families look after elders. Men have no intention of doing the actual work - they blithely know they won't have to do it, because the automatic assumption is that women will do it.

And yet these 2 men on the radio are talking about this with narry a mention of this fact.

And before the weakheads come on and say "oh but I know a man who does it" - yes dear, that's nice, but he's in a minority. It's generally women who do this labour and that's why cabinet ministers like Jeremy Hunt can have the bloody cheek to stand there and lecture "families" that they should be doing it while meaning women.

Jeremy Hunt is one of the worst features of this government. He makes pronouncements about things he has no experience of (today's pontificating, for example), throws out his views as if his ill-thought through opinions are all that is needed to construct policy around complex issues (abortion) and has very poor judgement (his dealings with Sky).

Sorry Kiss, what does getting a load of smoke blown up your arse mean? Is that a positive or negative thing? Do you mean they imply you shouldn't be doing it?

I'll break a taboo in this discussion, and provide some facts and stats;

www.carersuk.org/newsroom/stats-and-facts

In the UK, 58 per cent of carers are women, 42 per cent men. An imbalance, yes, but grossly disproportional? Any comments?

Oh yes Kim, it's terribly important to show the exceptions on a thread about the invisibilisation of the gender aspect.

Widow, do you seriously think that pretending it's not a gender issue, will result in men doing more of it?

Because that hasn't happened with housework or childcare, has it? Can't see it working with this issue either.

IMO you only change things if you acknowledge they exist.

BasilBabyEater it's a phrase meaning to give meaningless, flattering praise. It's thought to come from the old practise of giving tobacco smoke enemas.

Margaret Forster's "Have the men had enough" is brilliant on the gender and care issue.

I can imagine as per Phaser's post that there are quite a few men caring for their spouses - in that situation there would often simply not be anyone else to do it, particularly if children are far away. But men simply do not tend to take on the burden of elder care. That is for women - the daughters or even the daughters in law. And why would they? It's unacknowledged work. Not like being a Cabinet Minister.

That 42% of male carers are largely men caring for their wives Phaserstostun:

"Women have a 50:50 chance of providing care by the time they are 59; compared with men who have the same chance by the time they are 75 years old" (because they're caring for partners, not parents)

"Women are also more likely to give up work in order to care." (because men are usually retired by the time they're caring for their partners)

I'm with you, Basil, I shouted exactly the same thing at the radio this morning. Jeremy fecking Cunt (as Jim Naughtie called him).

Indeed there are men who are carers too but a. there are more women and b. Jeremy mentioning Asian families rather gives the game away about who he had in mind when he insisted people should look after their own elderly relatives.

Funny how this government is advocating more unpaid care while savaging the budgets for social care at all levels. And stripping the dying and disabled of disability benefits.

LOL Kisses I've learned something new tonight. (Mind boggling at tobacco-smoke enemas)

Basil - I'm not saying that "pretending it's not a gender issue will stop it being a gender issue". What I'm saying that it iys partly a self fulfilling prophecy.

It's also annoying when you're as a woman out earn your partner, but the childcare cost issue is always framed as preventing the woman from going back to work, rather than the 'lower earner'.

It needs to be addressed that in the majority of set ups women still are the lower earner, but it's not doing anyone any favours to perpetuate that the lower earner automatically is the woman. It doesn't have to be.

In the same way as working fathers seem to have to defend themselves much less often for working than working mothers do.

Same applies to other care. Yes, it's a fact that it's mostly women who do the caring, but it would help if the expectation was removed, and part of that is adapting the language accordingly.

Ha ha ha "we are being governed by muppets"
So is Australia with PM Tony Abbott- kicked out all but one lonely woman from parliament, probably expects them to care for their parents instead of run the country

I don't think the statistics supplied by the poster above are relevant, since they do not apply to being a carer for an elderly parent exclusively. People can become carers for partners, children, friends etc at other stages in their lives and so this would account for a percentage of the male carers included in those stats.

I think the two Jeremy's are missing something vital about the population of this country : women are having their children later now

Take my situation - Mum had me at 35, and has lived alone since divorcing Dad about 10 years ago. Fast forward to this year when she turned 65 and suffered a stroke. Although I have a very supportive DB who is single but works full time, the responsibility of caring for mum fell on me. I have one DC aged 4 and another on the way.

Following a very lengthy stay in hospital, I cared for mum for 4 months cramped into our very modest home, with her sleeping in the living room. Thankfully she has made a fantastic recovery and is now living in sheltered accommodation. But the point is, aged 29 I was faced with looking after an "elderly" parent having not even given birth to my own DC yet. I dread to think how we would have managed in the long run if she had not recovered so well.

I was very lucky I was able to hang on to my part time job throughout this, largely due to my very understanding boss. But what if I had lost my job and income through this, or my marriage had broken down due to the enourmous strain on us?

I am extremely close with my Mum and had to have some really difficult discussions with her about her care, and we both agree 100% that it would have destroyed our relationship if I had been forced to become her full time carer at this stage of our lives. FWIW I am still her carer, with the assistance of her new housing set up and some agency carers.

The carers allowance is atrocious - £59 a week and you have to jump through hoops for that.

Have Jeremy Hunt and Jeremy Vine thought of the women who will still be expected to raise their DC in a reasonable way and find the money for child care which I dare say would be a lifeline if mothers are caring for an elderly relative?

So I agree with you Basil, as in my experience this is totally another responsibility that women will be expected to juggle.

it's probably just how our little pink brains our wired kim, same reason why i love makeup, frocks, and cry at adverts for chocolate

it's evolution innit

sorry, it just occured to me that you might be serious.

women are more likely to earn less than their partners, so if life changes mean that someone gives up work, it is usually a woman. women tend to earn less for a variety of reasons- from just not being paid what a man would earn in a similar position, to having been funnelled into a career (hair and beauty nvq vs better earning trades) as a result of sexist cultural assumptions about women's jobs and men's jobs

there is also an expectation that women are more family oriented. also, it is not aan expectation of men that they sacrifice their own happiness or freedom or whatever for someone else.

yes, there are exceptions.

" Although I have a very supportive DB who is single but works full time, the responsibility of caring for mum fell on me. I have one DC aged 4 and another on the way. "

See that sums it up in a nutshell. Why did the responsibility fall on you Rach? If your DB had been a single full time working sister, do you think the responsibility would have automatically fallen on you? Because I suspect that in that situation, she would have come under some pressure to downshift her hours so that she could take on some of the burden, given that you already have quite a lot on your plate.

Why do you think women are more likely to take on the caring role for elder relatives Kim?

WW I somehow don't think Jeremy Hunt is choosing his language in order to reject societal expectations of women, do you?

Basil I haven't said that, however I'd be frothing more if he had said women should care for the elderly.

YY Basil, why did Rach's brother not recognise that Rach does actually work i.e. she already has a caring role, just unpaid. They both work, it's just he's a bloke and he gets paid for it.

Ok then, here's another personal account

MiL has early dementia. We live 200 miles away.

She lives in a house built and owned by BiL

As MiLs health deteriorates, all phone calls and contact concerning this to us are done by BiLs FEMALE DP (not a blood relative) or her own mother.

Financial and formal issues are BiLs 'domain'

Depressing how easily people fall into line with gender expecations, isn't it?

Dh and SIL share the burden of caring for MIL - she has carers going in five times a day but DH and SIL share all the admin, and each goes to see MIL once or twice a week. I work full-time so don't. When SIL was with BIL (recent break-up) BIL was very involved in all the admin and driving SIL over to MIL's (SIL doesn't drive).

Actually maybe if I drove I'd be expected to do more? (I can't, for medical reasons).

(Five times a day is actually too much, the carers are v. nice but the visits disturb MIL when she's asleep.)

WW of course he's not going to say that, all but the most idiotic of tories now know that that's no longer acceptable.

This thread is about the lack of acknowledgement in all public discussions about this, that the work of caring for elderly parents generally falls on women and so any public discussion of that, needs to acknowledge that.

If you're happy with that lack of acknowledgement, fine, whatever floats your boat. I'm not, which is why I started the thread.

Yes, I totally agree.

All this bollocks about "families" looking after their parents, when the presumption is that women (who've often already destroyed their earning capacity looking after their children) will sacrifice their middle age to looking after their parents and PILs.

The other really shitty thing was listening to a very rich man who can pay for all kinds of home help criticising families who take the cheaper option (per hour of care) of using care homes.

Expecting women to put their entire lives on hold indefinitely while their elderly parent gradually declines over decades is too much to ask of anyone.

And it is only the presumption that women aren't really people that allows this kind of shite to be trotted out as though it is a reasonable expectation.