Oh FFS. I am so sick of the gender invisibilisation that is going on around Jeremy Hunt's call for families to look after elders

[BasilBabyEater]

I'm listening to Jeremy Vine on R2 atm and there's this whole thing about how we as a society should look after elders, can we learn from Asian families etc. and the massive elephant in the room is not being mentioned - that when men talk about how "families" look after elders, what they mean is, the women in the families look after elders. Men have no intention of doing the actual work - they blithely know they won't have to do it, because the automatic assumption is that women will do it.

And yet these 2 men on the radio are talking about this with narry a mention of this fact.

And before the weakheads come on and say "oh but I know a man who does it" - yes dear, that's nice, but he's in a minority. It's generally women who do this labour and that's why cabinet ministers like Jeremy Hunt can have the bloody cheek to stand there and lecture "families" that they should be doing it while meaning women.

[EllieQ]

I agree with Basil's comments about why Rach was responsible for her mother's care, despite having a small child and being pregnant, while her brother (single with no children, has a full time job) was not.

My sisters and I have shared looking after our mother since her health started to decline a few years ago. My sisters have children and work part-time, I don't have children and work full time. It is expected that in any kind of emergency, I will be the one who has to drop everything and rush to see mum - I live the closest (2 hours drive), but I suspect it would be the same if one of my sisters lived closer to mum.

I had a very stressful conversation with my aunt once because she expected me to be able to come up to deal with one crisis, and really could not understand that I had a report to finish to meet external deadlines and as my manager was on leave, I needed to finish it and could not rush up there (it was a case of needing another day at work to get it done, not weeks). I remember her saying 'of course your sisters can't come up' and me thinking 'well, actually, it would be easier for them even if they had to bring the baby'.

It's depressing to think that if I was male, that probably wouldn't have been the case.

[higgle]

DH and I both work, we need to do so to live. I won't be able to retire until I'm 66 and live 100+ miles from my mother, 87. DM would not want to live with us, she doesn't like my cooking, my house (newish, built to eco standards) is "too cold" for her, she doesn't want to watch what we watch on telly, but doesn't want to watch alone in another room. It would be hell for all of us. At least we have a spare room if there is an emergency that can't be dealt with any other way, the "bedroom tax" and the current price of housing means few people will have the space anyway.

[Quangle]

Agree. Dstepmum effectively stopped work at 50 to look after her mother who had alzheimers - she cared for her in her own home for a decade until her death. It was as good as it could be given the diagnosis - her mum had very good quality of life until the end and Dstepmum was willing and able to put in the necessary time (no children of her own, plenty of cash). I'll be 50 in five years - and will still have primary age children. Plus will be working for another twenty years because no pension to speak of. So I just won't be free to down tools and provide the sort of care that Dstepmum did, to my own mum who looks quite likely to need a lot of care.

[DontmindifIdo]

Been thinking about this today and I think actually, there's a bigger issue that's being missed, a whole tranche of the free family help from woman is dying out.

Take my family, when my nana needed care, she went to live with my mum, her dd - but my mum was retired by then and both of her dcs (me and my db) had finished uni and left home. My mil similarly looked after her own mother and fil, but my mil was the last of woman who had to resign when pregnant (if dh was 6 months younger mil would have been entitled to mat leave), she did occasional work for "pin money" but never worked ft again or really needed the money.

If my mum needs care at the same age as her mum did, I will have my youngest dc still at secondary school, and uni to potentially pay for. It's not going to be as simple as just stepping up, far more of the woman in the generation after baby boomers went back to work after dcs and have careers they neither can afford to give up nor will want too. It's unlikely that I'll be able to retire as early as my mum did (early 50s), and even if I could, as she had me later than her mum had her, that might be too late anyway.

Previous generations of woman have been available to do care for elderly relatives (their own or their dhs) because of career sacrifices made in order to care for their own dcs. As woman are increasingly able to stay in work after having dcs, with an expectation that most will be back working ft once dcs are secondary age, there's going to be a lot less woman who's primary job is already family care to take on older family care. An increase in working mothers is a decrease in available free labour for care. I might pay out for care for my own dcs while I'm at work, but I am not going to be able to pay for someone else to pick up the bill for parents/pil care I might have done for free if I was a SAHM.

[wasabipeanut]

I agree with the OP and this is all very personal for me. My dad died last year and my Mum is 70 next year. Her mother lived into her 90's. Mum is selling up and moving closer to us which is what I want as much as she does as I want her to be a day to day part of my DC's lives. However when she becomes less mobile and needs more care it's inevitable who will be providing it. My brother is fucking useless and can barely look after himself.

I still work as a freelancer but have 3 young DC's who I look after now, and realistically I can't see how going back to work full time is going to be an option for a few years - by which time my Mum will probably be on the decline.

It's all so inevitable and to be honest I do feel trapped and a bit resentful. When I heard JH's views I thought "how convenient - women should care for their elders so the state doesn't have to." This is a gendered issue and anybody who thinks it isn't is in cloud cuckoo land.

[rosabud]

If you read all the personal anecdotes here, there are patterns emerging that 1) men are more likely to arrange transport/money/admin as their part in the caring role rather than personal care and 2) men may be involved in caring BUT the more distant the relationship, the less likely they are to be carers, whereas for women, even when the relationship is a distant one (ie they are not a blood relative etc) they are still likely to be the carers over a nearer male relative.

I think it's cultural assumption. When my grandmother was in a nursing home, I regualrly popped in to see her wheras my brothers didn't. In the last two weeks of her life, although it had been clear that she had been deteriorating for some time, my brothers were very upset by the news that her death was imminent and only then did a sort of panicked rush to visit her. My brothers are not uncaring, horrible men, I just don't think it ever occured to them that it was their role to visit an old relative. I didn't see it as my "role" either, but I thought it was the kind thing to do. Our society conditions women to think of others, be kind etc and conditions men to think of themselves primarily and sort out practical things.

So I agree with OP and it frustrates me but for the two Jeremys it probably wasn't an elephant in the room - it's so obvious to them that it's women who will be doing the caring, they don't feel a need to mention it.

[bunnybing]

actually my uncle does do far more than my mother for my grandfather - always has done. obviously I'm a weak-head for mentioning this.

[JoinYourPlayfellows]

Yes, I totally agree.

All this bollocks about "families" looking after their parents, when the presumption is that women (who've often already destroyed their earning capacity looking after their children) will sacrifice their middle age to looking after their parents and PILs.

The other really shitty thing was listening to a very rich man who can pay for all kinds of home help criticising families who take the cheaper option (per hour of care) of using care homes.

Expecting women to put their entire lives on hold indefinitely while their elderly parent gradually declines over decades is too much to ask of anyone.

And it is only the presumption that women aren't really people that allows this kind of shite to be trotted out as though it is a reasonable expectation.

[BasilBabyEater]

WW of course he's not going to say that, all but the most idiotic of tories now know that that's no longer acceptable.

This thread is about the lack of acknowledgement in all public discussions about this, that the work of caring for elderly parents generally falls on women and so any public discussion of that, needs to acknowledge that.

If you're happy with that lack of acknowledgement, fine, whatever floats your boat. I'm not, which is why I started the thread.

[edam]

(Five times a day is actually too much, the carers are v. nice but the visits disturb MIL when she's asleep.)

[edam]

Depressing how easily people fall into line with gender expecations, isn't it?

Dh and SIL share the burden of caring for MIL - she has carers going in five times a day but DH and SIL share all the admin, and each goes to see MIL once or twice a week. I work full-time so don't. When SIL was with BIL (recent break-up) BIL was very involved in all the admin and driving SIL over to MIL's (SIL doesn't drive).

Actually maybe if I drove I'd be expected to do more? (I can't, for medical reasons).

[GrippingArms]

Ok then, here's another personal account

MiL has early dementia. We live 200 miles away.

She lives in a house built and owned by BiL

As MiLs health deteriorates, all phone calls and contact concerning this to us are done by BiLs FEMALE DP (not a blood relative) or her own mother.

Financial and formal issues are BiLs 'domain'

[edam]

YY Basil, why did Rach's brother not recognise that Rach does actually work i.e. she already has a caring role, just unpaid. They both work, it's just he's a bloke and he gets paid for it.

[WidowWadman]

Basil I haven't said that, however I'd be frothing more if he had said women should care for the elderly.

[BasilBabyEater]

" Although I have a very supportive DB who is single but works full time, the responsibility of caring for mum fell on me. I have one DC aged 4 and another on the way. "

See that sums it up in a nutshell. Why did the responsibility fall on you Rach? If your DB had been a single full time working sister, do you think the responsibility would have automatically fallen on you? Because I suspect that in that situation, she would have come under some pressure to downshift her hours so that she could take on some of the burden, given that you already have quite a lot on your plate.

Why do you think women are more likely to take on the caring role for elder relatives Kim?

WW I somehow don't think Jeremy Hunt is choosing his language in order to reject societal expectations of women, do you?

[chibi]

sorry, it just occured to me that you might be serious.

women are more likely to earn less than their partners, so if life changes mean that someone gives up work, it is usually a woman. women tend to earn less for a variety of reasons- from just not being paid what a man would earn in a similar position, to having been funnelled into a career (hair and beauty nvq vs better earning trades) as a result of sexist cultural assumptions about women's jobs and men's jobs

there is also an expectation that women are more family oriented. also, it is not aan expectation of men that they sacrifice their own happiness or freedom or whatever for someone else.

yes, there are exceptions.

[chibi]

it's probably just how our little pink brains our wired kim, same reason why i love makeup, frocks, and cry at adverts for chocolate

it's evolution innit

[Rach8341]

I don't think the statistics supplied by the poster above are relevant, since they do not apply to being a carer for an elderly parent exclusively. People can become carers for partners, children, friends etc at other stages in their lives and so this would account for a percentage of the male carers included in those stats.

I think the two Jeremy's are missing something vital about the population of this country : women are having their children later now

Take my situation - Mum had me at 35, and has lived alone since divorcing Dad about 10 years ago. Fast forward to this year when she turned 65 and suffered a stroke. Although I have a very supportive DB who is single but works full time, the responsibility of caring for mum fell on me. I have one DC aged 4 and another on the way.

Following a very lengthy stay in hospital, I cared for mum for 4 months cramped into our very modest home, with her sleeping in the living room. Thankfully she has made a fantastic recovery and is now living in sheltered accommodation. But the point is, aged 29 I was faced with looking after an "elderly" parent having not even given birth to my own DC yet. I dread to think how we would have managed in the long run if she had not recovered so well.

I was very lucky I was able to hang on to my part time job throughout this, largely due to my very understanding boss. But what if I had lost my job and income through this, or my marriage had broken down due to the enourmous strain on us?

I am extremely close with my Mum and had to have some really difficult discussions with her about her care, and we both agree 100% that it would have destroyed our relationship if I had been forced to become her full time carer at this stage of our lives. FWIW I am still her carer, with the assistance of her new housing set up and some agency carers.

The carers allowance is atrocious - £59 a week and you have to jump through hoops for that.

Have Jeremy Hunt and Jeremy Vine thought of the women who will still be expected to raise their DC in a reasonable way and find the money for child care which I dare say would be a lifeline if mothers are caring for an elderly relative?

So I agree with you Basil, as in my experience this is totally another responsibility that women will be expected to juggle.

[NoPartyDay]

Ha ha ha "we are being governed by muppets"
So is Australia with PM Tony Abbott- kicked out all but one lonely woman from parliament, probably expects them to care for their parents instead of run the country

[WidowWadman]

Basil - I'm not saying that "pretending it's not a gender issue will stop it being a gender issue". What I'm saying that it iys partly a self fulfilling prophecy.

It's also annoying when you're as a woman out earn your partner, but the childcare cost issue is always framed as preventing the woman from going back to work, rather than the 'lower earner'.

It needs to be addressed that in the majority of set ups women still are the lower earner, but it's not doing anyone any favours to perpetuate that the lower earner automatically is the woman. It doesn't have to be.

In the same way as working fathers seem to have to defend themselves much less often for working than working mothers do.

Same applies to other care. Yes, it's a fact that it's mostly women who do the caring, but it would help if the expectation was removed, and part of that is adapting the language accordingly.

[BasilBabyEater]

LOL Kisses I've learned something new tonight. (Mind boggling at tobacco-smoke enemas)

[edam]

I'm with you, Basil, I shouted exactly the same thing at the radio this morning. Jeremy fecking Cunt (as Jim Naughtie called him).

Indeed there are men who are carers too but a. there are more women and b. Jeremy mentioning Asian families rather gives the game away about who he had in mind when he insisted people should look after their own elderly relatives.

Funny how this government is advocating more unpaid care while savaging the budgets for social care at all levels. And stripping the dying and disabled of disability benefits.

[BasilBabyEater]

That 42% of male carers are largely men caring for their wives Phaserstostun:

"Women have a 50:50 chance of providing care by the time they are 59; compared with men who have the same chance by the time they are 75 years old" (because they're caring for partners, not parents)

"Women are also more likely to give up work in order to care." (because men are usually retired by the time they're caring for their partners)