Am I wrong to let my daughter enjoy being girly then?

[pictish]

DD is four - she will be five in Feb. I have two sons as well.

I have never encouraged or acknowledged a marked differentiation between the sexes, regards their interests and clothing. I always steered away from that stuff, letting them make their own minds up.

However, dd has embraced girliness wholeheartedly. She loves pink, and dresses, and My Little Pony and all things sparkly. In the interests of autonomy, and cultivating her own tastes, I don't mind it in the least.

I am starting to feel though, that through reading MN, unless she is playing football in bovver boots, I am doing her a disservice.
My mil (who is lovely really) is rolly eyed about all things pink and girly, and can't resist from making little comments about it. "Oh that's a very fancy dress" (sarcastic).

I have explained that the girliness is her own choice, and just what she happens to like, but I think it goes over her head...mil wants to think it's me pushing this onto her. It isn't.

I sometimes wonder if, in the quest for equality, we sometimes go too far the other way, and heap scorn upon girls who want to be girly? I feel the need to defend my dd's right to love pink and sparkly, as it is now heralded as so deeply uncool.

I thought it was all about offering choices...but nowadays (particularly on MN) it seems as though a girl being girly is a failure.

Anyone?

[Threalamandaclarke]

Thanks pictish

[pictish]

but you seem to be positing that feminists/feminism is the problem

Do I? Where?

[FloraFox]

In your OP you say: "I sometimes wonder if, in the quest for equality, we sometimes go too far the other way, and heap scorn upon girls who want to be girly?"

[PenguinsDontEatPancakes]

Zog is brilliant. "Dont' rescue me, I won't go back, to being a princess. And prancing round the palace in a silly frilly dress." Not because there's anything wrong with the frilly dress, but because she wants to be a doctor .

[5madthings]

I don't think Pictishis blaming feminism, and I have picked up on the same feeling that pink/sparkly etc is to be sneered at. And there is a 'my girl likes...(anything precoeved as male) to be good attitude.
The pink princess cultireis derided, people complain about 'pinkification' and there is the pinkstinks campaign etc.

I don't actually like pink that much ,myself and we I had dd (after four boys) I made it clear I did not want to be inundated by pink! Dd does wear some pink and so does ds3! But we dotn have many pink toys tbf, we do have my little ponies actually, gifted by a friend as her dd had outgrown them. And I a sure as my dd gets older she will make her own choices. But I get lots of comments still about how my house will now end up filled with "pink tat"(not my words) etc and there is a general feeling that all things pink are seen as less than and inferior. Hence why its not OK for boys to like them.

I would say that lots of toddlers naturally like pink and sparkles, the magpie effect but then its conditioned out of boys, girls carry on with it, hell its hard to avoid! But it is not seen as a positive thing, but it is seen as positive for a girl to like 'boy' things.and then the converse is true that its not OK for a boy to like girls things.

See the thread entitled 'booby barbie' re a swimming teacher giving boys a barbie doll as the booby prize of they are bad at swimming...

[PenguinsDontEatPancakes]

Hmmm, see I moan about 'pink tat' for my girls. But in two specific regards:

1. There is a certain strand of retail which thinks you can make a product as badly, as insubstantially, as shonkily as you like, but if you stick a princess on the front you'll be fine. That annoys me.

1. The assumption by certain female relatives that, if it is pink and princessey it is perfect for a girl. Any girl. Mine don't much mind if a rucksack is pink with princesses, but they aren't into princesses. Dressing up outfits are a waste of everyone's money. But somehow it is assumed that, it is pink and covered in princesses, it is the perfect present for any girl.

[PenguinsDontEatPancakes]

Sorry, there is a third point. In some ways, a pink-ified product is often worse for being pink.

A pink globe is bloody ridiculous. The boys get blue, green, brown. You know a globe. The girl version is a fake pink globe. To me, that product has been made worse by pinkifying it.

[Threalamandaclarke]

Yes penguins I agree with that.
It's the fake girlyfying of things that I don't like (I think). Which is (IMO) all about: a. Selling more stuff and b. saying that being a girl is about being decorative.
My DM bought my DS that "stories for boys" book when he was tiny. I was a bit and then I read it and it was great and terrible at the same time. The knights were better than the princess stories I had as a child. There was a sense of adventure and self determinism (possibly not an accurate historical depiction) about the knights rather than the "waiting to be rescued" activities of a princess (young girl) or bitter twisted old witch (older/ past it woman) options for females in fiction.
So I am really pleased to have these other options now for my DCs. I will get them for DS so he can set the standard for miniature feminists in our home. Then read them to DD too.

[Spiritedwolf]

I own a pink toolset. It was given to me by my parents or perhaps stolen borrowed from their house at some point, I can't quite remember. If I had been buying a household tool set for myself it wouldn't have occured to me to buy pink as its not a colour I prefer, and I resent the implication that girls need things to be pink to use them.

That said, I blooming well use the toolkit as I am the person in this house who likes to diy (DH not interested) and its what we have. Some of the tools are a bit rubbish - the level for instance, but the hammer and screwdriver are really good. I don't think it a little bit rubbish because its a pink one, its just the price range its in. I now have bought myself a (green) drill and other bits and pieces.

I can't decide if I'm annoyed that they make pink tools for ladies, or whether its a shame that 'serious' tools come in so few colours.

[pictish]

In your OP you say: "I sometimes wonder if, in the quest for equality, we sometimes go too far the other way, and heap scorn upon girls who want to be girly?"

Yeah...it was a general comment. The generic 'we'. It wasn't aimed at feminists or feminism.

[holmessweetholmes]

My dd used to love pink, sparkly, girly stuff. She grew out of it (encouraged by me!) at about age 6 and is now (age 8)very anti-girly stuff and very aware of her right/ability to do anything boys do. I'm glad that phase has gone, and proud that she already has that assertiveness, but I sort of feel a little guilty about the fact that I nudged her quite vigorously in one direction.

[BasilBabyEater]

I think the phrase "too far the other way" is never going to be positively received tbh. It smacks of "it's all gorn too far..." And earlier on in the thread there was a really unpleasant sneery tone (possibly not from you Pictish, I can't be arsed to go back and see who from and I don't think that would be a particularly constructive/ interesting thing to do anyway as I'm not interested in personalising this sort of stuff) which implied that nasty feminist mothers are denying their DD's the chance to be themselves while those who glory in their DD's pinkness, are much better mothers because they're accepting their DD's real selves. It disgusted me tbh.

Feminist mothers are incredibly conscious of how limited the prescribed gender norms are for both their sons and their daughters. In my case, particularly for their sons actually - I personally have found that my DD has more opportunities for self-expression than my DS, precisely because a girl who does "boy's" stuff trades up, while a boy who does "girl's" stuff trades down and gets laughed at or actually bullied, because girl's stuff is shit, because girls are shit. I remember my uncle (OK he's an arse) demanding that I hide a toy ironing board from DS when he was about 2, presumably because he thought he might "catch the gay" or something . Wanker. So when goady posts imply that anyone feminist is somehow denying their child self-expression when actually it's the people around us who gender-police our DC's - and particularly our boy's - behaviour most, it is incredibly offensive. Just putting that out there in case anyone might is interested in finding out how they might inadvertently offend someone without meaning to.

Having said that, I do think there's an issue with the shitting on girl's stuff - I have a slight problem with the pink stinks campaign because although I agree with its aims, the immediate tone of it is that girl's stuff is shit - you have to look a little deeper to see that that's not what they're saying, but most people don't look further than the headlines.

And also Penguins is right - there are some instances where pinkifying something is making it shit, also-ran, othering - the real mccoy is not pink and the real mccoy isn't for little girls, here, look, have this second-class pink version.

But I agree with Spiritedwolf as well - there is no reason tools shouldn't be made with pink handles - or red, purple, turquoise with flowers on etc. But why aren't they marketed at men when they are?

[BasilBabyEater]

Oops, sorry for the essay

[mysticminstrel]

My Mum raised me like this - wouldn't let me have dolls, Barbies, wear pink, I hardly had any dresses.

Did it affect me? I think it fundamentally undermined my feelings of feminitity, actually. Being told all the time that I shouldn't try to look 'nice' meant that I still feel stupid now when I get dressed up.

My DDs are allowed as much pink princessy stuff as they fancy - one embraces it, the other couldn't care less. I see it as a passing stage, tbh.

I won't buy them Barbies though!

[SinisterSal]

Becuase tools are serious men's stuff for getting the job done, not not silly girls posing and giggling and making a bit of a stab at it. fair play to them for trying!
They don't make ironing boards in dark steel with chrome finishes with Crease Beast written on them either.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I won't buy them Barbies though!

someone else is bound to buy some for them - just wait till they have birthday parties aged 4/5/6.

[SinisterSal]

Not buying them Barbies is the same kind of thing though Mystic

I don't deny my kids anything. I just don't join in the chorus pushing them at them, family and friends will do all that. In much the same way I don't buy sweets, plenty of relatives will so they are not deprived. they will get enough opportunities from the world at large to indulge their tastes for pink sparkes and chocolate

Grim humourless mummy gives them the opportunity to indulge their hankerings for broccolli and worthy ecofriendly sustainable wood gender neutral brain development toys.

[mysticminstrel]

I don't care if someone else buys them Barbies, I'm just not spending my money on that tat - same as I won't buy them 'doggy doo' even though they've been asking for 18 months

[WoTmania]

'My Mum raised me like this - wouldn't let me have dolls, Barbies, wear pink, I hardly had any dresses.' Where is anyone advocating that on this thread (or on the FWR board?)?
All that I'm seeing from the 'usuals' of FWR is: let's treat all of our children equally. Let's tell girls and boys that they are as good as each other. No one, so far has said 'ban them from having pink clothes, barbies, dolls and dress and force them to climb trees'

[MomentForLife]

I have a 5 year old pink princess. She used to be obsessed with Thomas. Yes tv probably has influenced her a bit, but she does have other interest and used to go to foootball training.

I've embraced what she likes but she definately doesn't get it from me. She doesn't wear much pink because she chooses clothes that are like Mummy.lol.

I am just pleased she still likes toys really, some kids we know are only interested in computer games.

[mysticminstrel]

where did I say anyone was advocating doing that, WoTmania?

[WoTmania]

sorry, left off the last bit: it's not saying deny them certain toys/colours but allow girls and boys access to all the toys and books and games.

[WoTmania]

That's how I read your first sentence (the one I quoted).

[mysticminstrel]

Um, why did you read it like that? I was relating an experience - not commenting on anything the 'usuals' on FWR (whoever they are?) have said.

Not sure why you launched into that, actually.

[pictish]

I'm not sure why anyone is taking this thread as an attack on feminism really.