"It's just a Christmas card"

[BlingLoving]

A friend emailed me to asking I'd be offended if she wrote Bling and dh dhSurname on our Christmas card. I replied that yes, I would be slightly as my name is not Bling DhSurname. She replied saying she has already written it and "it's just a Christmas card".

Now, if she hadn't emailed me, I would have rolled my eyes internally but probably not said anything. But as she DID ask, I feel like I would like to respo d and point out that its not just a Christmas card. She is making decisions for me about what to call myself, knowing that her way is not my preference. It's irritating at the best of times, but when people use dh name for me when they know better it infuriates me. Before we for married no one had a problem using my name on a Christmas card.

How do. Reply, politely, but I a coherent way?

[ and separately, how disturbing is it that people are soooo uncomfortable using a women's name on a Christmas card when she is married?]

[AliceWChild]

Dr and mr. Dr takes precedence.

[GalaxyDisaStar]

Does it? Ooh, see I am not sure I could do that. It would feel too weird. The idea that a woman somehow gets promoted from being 'just' a woman and second if she has a doctorate. Goodness knows I struggle enough with Mr always being first, but only putting women with doctorates first would mess with my head even more.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

Late to the thread.

But:

NOT IT'S NOT JUST A FUCKING CHRISTMAS CARD!

I am so glad I found this thread.

I conscientiously write 'Ms Hername and Mr Hisname' and 'Jane and John Smith' to people because I'm sick of seeing it the other way around. But I call people what they want to be called.

So why the fuck does everyone suddenly thing I'm Mrs DHsname? I have never been Mrs DHsname. There has never, in fact, been a woman called Mrs DHsname. I'm outing myself here if you know me, but I've been extremely passive-aggressive and changed my name of facebook (ho, ho, the irony) so that my middle name now points out I am not Mrs DH'sName.

galaxy - with you there. I put women first (unless I'm writing to someone who'd notice and think it was rude - it usually comes naturally because I put the name of the person I know best out of the couple and most of them are the women). But I don't like the idea that Dr women become honorary men and therefore go first (because that's the implication, isn't it?).

We could just be alphabetical ...

[bigbadbarry]

We both have doctorates and I haven't changed my name. I roll my eyes but accept mr and mrs apart from when it comes from. My bloody mother who i swear does it to annoy, but dr and mrs makes me really cross

[GalaxyDisaStar]

I've done the cards for this year, but I think next year I might consciously do 'The Smiths' and the 'The Smith Family' for those sharing a surname. For unmarried couples or those who do not share a surname I tend to just do 'Ms X and Mr Y' or whatever.

I have never put an initial on. It's Mr and Mrs Smith, not Mr and Mrs M Smith. I will do Mr M Smith, because that actually is his name. But Mr M and Mrs C Smith is just long and clumsy, so I drop all the initials. It's not like anyone gets confused who it's for.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

bigbad - my parents always get 'Dr and Mrs'. They both have doctorates. And my mother wonders why people don't take her as seriously in her job as her qualifications (directly relevant) would suggest. She still writes to me as 'Mrs Hisname', though, 'because DH might be offended'.

If he's offended, he's putting up a bloody good front of being offended on my behalf instead!

I got taught it was rude to put 'Mrs Smith' without an initial (but then I got taught a lot of shit that I ignore), so I tend to put first names. Lucky my handwriting is small!

[GalaxyDisaStar]

BigBadBarry- I would never assume that. But on the other hand I know a middle aged woman who uses both Dr McDonald (maiden name) and Mrs Williams (married name). Not a medical doctor. She actively dislikes being addressed as Dr Williams. She says that Dr McDonald is her work persona and if she is being Williams it is private time and she doesn't want the title used. She wouldn't mind the card coming to Dr Jones & Dr McDonald (husband also a non medical doctor), but would actively want Dr & Mrs Jones and dislike Dr & Dr Jones. She is middle aged and very proper though, all her thank you notes have the correct wording for ettiquette and all that stuff.

That's it. Next year I am doing 'The Williams''

[GalaxyDisaStar]

LRD - I did too, but it is my compromise. I especially can't bear the idea that it implies women are divorced rather than widowed if you address them by their own name. So, traditionally, a widowed Sarah Smith who husband was John would still be Mrs J Smith. I can't bring myself to write that at all. She is surely Mrs S Smith.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

Technically, I think you're meant to stick to being 'Dr' with only one surname. Someone on here said that a while ago.

So I think she is probably just going by the rules (though most people I know don't worry about it/have never heard of it).

Also, some people just don't mind, which is nice. I don't in the least mind my mother-in-law calling me by DH's surname (not least because she does know how to say it which most English people don't). I mind people who know me as something other than DH's wife calling me it.

I think I would probably ask someone who used both which she would rather have, the same way I'd ask a man who went by both 'James' and 'Jim' which name he really preferred.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

galaxy - I don't know. Fortunately I don't know many people who've been widowed (because of the age I am). I think I'd just call them what I'd always called them as the last thing you'd want is a reminder that your status had changed.

[GalaxyDisaStar]

Interesting about the doctorates with one name thing. She is very proper. So, it would make sense if there is a technical rule she is obeying.

I do tend to ask people I properly 'know'. The problem I have is that there are loads of people I am expected to send a card to who I never really chat to - cousins who live far away and that type of thing.

[GalaxyDisaStar]

I don't know anyone my age who is widowed either - but in my parents and grandparents generation there are lots. Some of whom were widowed long before I was old enough to be writing cards so I never 'knew' any other way.

[Yama]

I haven't had this since the first Christmas of married life. I politely told anyone who got my name wrong that they had got my name wrong.

Any simple souls who can't work out how to address an envelope with two names on it have the option to go with our first names.

[sashh]

Your last sentence encapsulates the erasure of women from history and their position as a chattel of their DH.

Er actually I was making a comment about the English Language and naming conventions.

Does anyone know wht happens in Iceland? You could easily have a family of 4 with different names.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

Is it a naming convention really? I always thought that putting 'Mrs Husband'sInitial' was not really that you thought that was her name, but that it was somehow part of her title? So she's Mrs J Smith, but you know her name is Sarah. You don't think she's called John.

But I agree - that convention does certainly relate to the erasure of women from history, quite literally. It's a bugger tracing family trees matrilineally for that reason.

I don't think she was suggesting it was your personal fault!

[rosabud]

Well I am divorced but I am still Mrs Old DH's name so where does that leave me? I don't think of it as exDH's name, though, it's my name - has been for quite a number of years, actually, why should I change it to be different to my kids? it's not DH's name. it's MY NAME!! just like my old name was not my Dad's name or my Mum's name - it was MY NAME, and now this one is MY NAME too!!

And, do you know what, if I was clever enough, and lucky enough, to have become a DR WHATEVER NAME - well, I'd be just about as pleased as punch with myself and not really give two hoots what my dear friends chose to call me. As I am far, far too busy to send cards this year, all my friends will have to put up with no address whasoever - and they'll forgive me, I'm sure. you are you, not your name, "that which would smell as sweet....." and all that.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

Nicely put!

I always feel like that when someone tells me it's not my name, it's my dad's name. No: it is my name. It's the name I've had while I've done all these things (good and bad) that make me who I am, so dammit, I'm sticking with it!

[Ephiny]

I hate the 'it's not really your name, it's your father's name' thing too. Mostly because no one ever says that about men's names. Tbh once you're an adult, your name is whatever you choose to be known as anyway.

I think LRD is right about the Mr & Mrs John Smith. It is archaic and sexist, but it is an old-fashioned way of writing 'Mr John Smith and his wife', rather than implying that the wife's name is John (or even that she necessarily uses the surname Smith). This is why I'm just a bit at being addressed that way, rather than taking offence or saying it's not me. I think some of DH's relatives probably don't know (or can't spell) my surname anyway.

However MyFirstName DHSurname is just wrong by any standard. It's not tradition and it's not a name I personally use.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

I think what this thread proves is, there are many, many ways to get it wrong but virtually always, one simple way to get it right ... call people what they like or ask if you don't know!

[Ephiny]

Tbh it's still baffling to me that people are worrying about formal titles, doctorates etc when writing a Christmas card to their friends. Rather than just using their names .

I agree you can't go wrong just calling people what they want to be called. Though I'm sure most people are understanding about honest mistakes, it's when you get someone trying to make a point (whether it's insisting on 'changing' a married woman's surname for her, or pointedly using Ms when you know the person hates it) and imposing their idea of what you should be called, that it starts to be annoying.

[YouCanBe]

I always write inside the card whatever I think... flows better. So, Sonia and Harvey would be rejected in favour of Harvey and Sonia, Mike and Jessica would be rejected in favour of Jessica and Mike (er, OK I know this is completely just my brain making up its own rules but never mind).

Then on the envelope, I write the names the opposite way around, to make it fair.

[higgle]

We have always been Miss Higgle and Mr DH's name. My mother hates me not being Mrs DH and has "forgotten" from time to time for over 39 years. The worst example of this was when I was in hospital having had DS1 and all my flowers were sent back to the florist as they were addressed to "Mrs DH" and there was no one of that name in the hospital.

[GalaxyDisaStar]

Ephiny - It's not the card. It's the envelope! I am always conscious that many people (as I think someone said upthread about themselves) don't like getting an envelope with their full christian name on it. They consider it too public a place to have their name like that.

I don't think Mr & Mrs John Smith is a short way of saying Mr John Smith and his wife. Traditionally a married or widowed woman would be known as Mrs John Smith, but if you knew her well enough you might possibly call her Sarah. It's very evident in Austen, etc. It was almost as if 'Mrs' was some honoury title that you only got to use by your connection to the man, so you also took his first name to replace your own. It would be correct, according to Debretts, to address an invitation just to the wife to Mrs John Smith here. So it's not just shorthand. It was sort of something you became if you were married. You were Mrs John Smith, or Sarah Smith, but never Mrs Sarah Smith.

[Yama]

Higgle - I got home from work today to find 3 Christmas cards from my Mum (and Dad).

One addressed to Ms Me Me and Mr Dh Dh, one addressed to Miss Dd (my surname) and one addressed to Mr Ds (dh's name). Now, if my 66 year old Mum can get it right then anyone of any generation can.

Call people by their effing names people.

[PlaySchool]

Why don't you just forget about it? Is it worth falling out over? If so, then the friendship is worthless anyway.