Radfem2012 banning trans people

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Cross-post.

I agree, kim, that lots could be done by letting people act how they want without gender expectations.

If there is a surgical 'something else', would that be a worse problem than what we have now? Now, the surgery is not a perfect solution and often a terrible one (for those who want surgery). I can't see how it could be worse if we got rid of gender expectations. If, after that, some people still felt their bodies were so awful they could not accept them, we would probably do what we do now as a society - ie., try to work out medical solutions - while always trying to make sure people feel only have to have painful or imperfect solutions if there is nothing esle.

[Nyac]

Mary, most trans don't pass. They still look like men.

Some FTMs pass because testosterone does have a marked masculinising effect on the person taking it.

[MarySA]

This is when I am not understanding where they are coming from. So if a woman looked like a man say, that would be OK. But not a transexual person. I thought nowadays a transexual had the right to live and be treated as a woman.

So really that group seem to be stereo-typing themselves. But I can see the point of view that if there was less stereo-typing between the sexes then there might be less people feeling they had been born into the wrong sex. It's a minefield.

[SardineQueen]

Human female is not a stereotype, it is a fact, it exists and is real.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

mary, it's in the current medical rules.

It is utterly stupid and damaging (IMO).

The way it works is, if a person wants a sex change, they have to live 'as' the opposite sex for a while. Not just to say 'I don't like my body' or 'I have always felt inside I was the opposite sex and no-one accepts that because of the way my body is' - but, they have to live as the most stereotyped version of the opposite sex.

I mean, what is the 'right to live as a woman'?

[SardineQueen]

"I can understand about not wanting to live within gender expectations - after all, isn't that at the heart of feminism? Getting rid of the gender expectations about what men and women should do? It's hard for men who do not conform to gender expectations, and it's hard for women as well. Getting rid of gender expectations would benefit all.

Would that reduce the level of transgenderism? If people could wear what they want, act how they want and just live as they want without the fear of not being a "real man / woman"?"

That's my suspicion but I am not trans so I don't know really know. I imagine that there would be some reduction in numbers wishing to change but that some would still desire that.

I think for me I really don't understand how anyone can know that they feel something they are not. The idea of feeling like a woman - I don't feel like a woman as far as I can tell - so how can someone who is not a woman know that they feel like one? And what does it mean for women who are born female but don't have this feeling like a woman thing going on?

[Nyac]

I feel like a woman because I have a human female body. But if you don't have one then it's just not possible to have that feeling.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

What does it feel like, then, nyac?

[WidowWadman]

"Mary, most trans don't pass. They still look like men."

I find it awful when someone who claims to be a feminist, judges other people on appearance. As for passing, plenty of people have suggested that Florence Welch doesn't pass, or Lady Gaga to name another example, and they're not the only ones.

[Nyac]

There's a new TV series where Chloe Sevigny plays a MTF trans. They can't employ an actual MTF because the audience wouldn't be able to suspend its disbelief that they were watching a woman. Same way the actress playing the trans character Hayley in Coronation Street is a woman.

Alexis Arquette missed out on a job.

[WidowWadman]

And the decision of some TV editors prove what exactly?

[motherinferior]

Actually plenty of transwomen do pass these days - the surgery (including voice box surgery) on offer has become increasingly sophisticated. THey could have cast harmony santana or jamie clayton or laverne cox.

[motherinferior]

All of whom are out as trans, of course, but could be stealth if they wanted to, I rather assume.

[SardineQueen]

I don't understand this conversation here.

How masculine or feminine you look does not determine your sex. There have always been men who could pass as women and women who could pass as men. I have not had the impression that people transitioning do so because they have features which will easily pass as the opposite sex. More that people who do transition have an easier time if they have characteristics which make it easier for them to "pass".

Ditto the comments about women who "look like men" upthread and attending this conference.

What people look like has nothing to do with this.

[motherinferior]

I'm just taking issue with Nyac's argument that all transwomen look Just Like Blokes Because They Are Blokes Innit.

There are also plenty of transwomen - including the activist who wrote the comment piece - who don't pass and don't particularly want to.

[Nyac]

I don't think any of them pass. Nice make-up though.

[Nyac]

"I'm just taking issue with Nyac's argument that all transwomen look Just Like Blokes Because They Are Blokes Innit. "

Yeah, that wasn't my argument. This was my argument:

"Mary, most trans don't pass."

Which implies that some trans do pass. So what exactly was your point there?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Why on earth does it matter? Who cares what someone looks like?

It is just as nasty to have a go at how a transsexual looks, as it is to observe that a woman who buys into the idea of feminism looks a certain way. Obviously both are perpetuating the same idea of femininity as something external, visible and important ... I think we're better talking about that instead of getting into arguments about how closely individuals live up to our patriarchial stereotypes.

Personally, not being terribly noticing, I don't think I'd know which person in the clip is meant to be the transsexual.

[Nyac]

If people are a bit confused as to why we're talking about whether trans can pass, Mary asked me how the conference organisers would stop trans from gatecrashing the event, to which I responded that most trans don't pass. In other words it's not that difficult to see the difference. Then we got a long stupid argument about how some actors manage to pass, even though they don't really.

Women have a right to organise as biological women, without XY people in our midst.

[WidowWadman]

Nyac - what about those women who aren't trans but "don't pass" to use your terminology?

[Nyac]

SardineQueen, testosterone does masculinise men's features, and the features of the women who take it. Also if we were all naked, which is how we used to be way back when, there would be no question of who was a woman and who was a man, just by looking unless the surgeons had got there first I guess. So the idea that we should ignore our own eyes evidence is not a sensible approach. The fact that most MTFs still look incredibly masculine is a case of the Emperors New Clothes and is causing a massive amount of cognitive dissonance in the population.

We tell the difference between people every day by looking at them and deciding on their sex. It's incredibly rare for people to get it wrong.

[Nyac]

Passing is something only trans do WW, not women. It's a trans term, they invented it.

Maybe you should investigate the terminology a bit further before you start using it yourself.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Yeah, and I think the point we're all making is, who gives a fuck who can 'pass' and why does it matter?

Is it terribly important to transsexuals that they be a) seen as the gender to which they have transitioned or b) recognized as different from that gender?

This is what I do not understand. I cannot help feeling it is dishonest and unfair to insist on being accepted as 'women', but also to insist on being visibly distinct from 'women' at the times when women need solidarity.

[Nyac]

Actually I'll help out, as this is quite entertaining:

How to pass as a lady

"MTF: Passing

Before surgery, many MTF trans* people will undergo other procedures to give the appearance of being female. The most common are:

Hair removal: this can be done in a number of ways; some of which are better than others in terms of hiding a ?shadow? (such as electrolysis and laser hair removal)
Make up
Shaping eyebrows
Padding : these are used to give the appearance of breasts. Often make-up is also used to give more of an appearance of cleavage.
Tucking: this is to hide the appearance of male genitalia. The process isn?t usually painful (the testicles are pushed in and the penis is pulled back). A ?gaff? (essentially a tight ?panty? which can either be made by yourself or bought) is then worn, followed by underwear. This can also helps to improve the pitch of the voice"

[Nyac]

Don't talk to me like that LRD. It's extremely rude.