poster campaign aimed at men cuts rape rate by 10%

[chibi]

in canada

i wish we did this here rather than the terrified woman as prey animal graphic with doomy text about how the onus is on you to prevent your own rape

ps canada i love you

[edam]

This thread is supposed to be about combating rape, not All About Boney.

[BasilRathbone]

BBJ with respect, AF didn't make fun of rape victims.

She made fun of people who imply that it is not valid to target the main potential perpetrators of rape against the main potential victims of rape, rather than other less common groups who also perpetrate and are the victims of rape.

Did you really not get that? I thought it was obvious, but then, I'm very familiar with AF's posting style.

[AnyFucker]

Basil, you understand irony

it is beyond Boney, that much is clear

[AnyFucker]

in future Boney, cut out "you are one of my favourite posters" and cut straight to the chase, ok ?

it will save us all a lot of time

[SinicalSanta]

many many rapists don't think of themselves as so.
they think they went a bit far maybe, a bit laddish, a bit naughty but certainly nothing damaging or criminal.
their victims also believe that.
Society believes it - as Cailin Dana says, many many sensible people buy into the grey area thing.

I'm so glad to see the focus on the grey area. It's not that murky really - let's get some clarity.

[CatherineMacauley]

According to that bastion of feminism Wikipedia, it appears that rapists are 99% male (figures from another feminist stronghold in the US Bureau of Justice Statistics) with 1% female assaliants. The same study shows that women are 91% of victims and 9% are male. Thus male rape victims are assaulted by men much more often than by women.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender

Given this, it would appear that the consequence of trying to focus on male victims and female perpetrators is to ignore between 91 and 99 percent of victims. Why would anyone want to do that?

As far as I can see, the statistics also suggest that male rape victims would benefit from targeting rape awareness posters to fellow males. So why such a fuss about them? It's a win win situation all round I feel.

But hey, we shouldn't let facts and reality get in the way of someone's attempt to prove that how evil feminists are

[AnyFucker]

did hamsters feature at all, Catherine ?

or was the relevance of hamster rapists on a thread about males raping women vanishingly small too ?

[messyisthenewtidy]

Years ago a then ex-boyfriend-but-still-friend came to visit me in my new flat. We got pretty drunk and fell asleep. I woke up in the middle of the night to find his penis inside me. His first words were "oh you don't mind do you?"

Incredibly he didn't think he'd done anything wrong. It's all part of the "you can't blame a guy for trying" culture that these types of posters are trying to challenge. Like Sinical and Basil have pointed out- men who think it's ok. I just hope that wherever he is he sees this poster and realises that it was not ok after all.

[ecclesvet]

"someone's attempt to prove that how evil feminists are"

Was that directed at me, Catherine?

I've said right from the beginning that I like this campaign, I like the angle it takes, men are practically always the perpetrator, etc.

It seems that unless you exhibit total unwavering belief in the rape myth that it is always a male perpetrator and always a female victim, then you aren't welcome here.

Apparently, raising a valid criticism of a campaign whilst also pointing out the good points is "deriding the campaign", "attempting to prove how evil feminists are", and/or "nonsense about a feminist conspiracy".

I find the minimising and 'othering' of rape victims rather disgusting, actually (i.e. comparison to 'hamster rape').

Let's make it nice and clear to avoid the (deliberate?) misunderstandings:

I LIKE THIS CAMPAIGN; IT IS GOOD. I HOPE THERE ARE MORE LIKE IT.

I ALSO HOPE THAT THERE CAN BE OTHER CAMPAIGNS, OR PARTS OF CAMPAIGNS, FEATURING MALE VICTIMS AND/OR FEMALE RAPISTS. THIS COULD SHOW TO VICTIMS THAT THEY ARE NOT ALONE AND THAT THEIR EXPERIENCE IS ACKNOWLEDGED AS EQUAL TO A 'PROPER' RAPE OF A WOMAN BY A MAN.

[CatherineMacauley]

No Eccles, it wasn't directed at you at all. I was thinking of the Napoleonic/70s glamrockband sounding poster. Perhaps I should have mentioned him by name, but I didn't want to give him the publicity.

I have no problem with acknowledging that males are victims of rape. What I wanted to point out was that male and female victims would benefit for campaigns targeting perpetrators and for that reason I couldn't understand why it was a controversial thing to do.

I also wanted to make it clear that men are raped by men much more often than they are by women.

Rape is not a crime I find remotely funny nor do I find the victims of rape funny whatever their sex is.

I do find it strange that feminists are berated for concentrating on women however. It's kind of the raisin d'être really of feminism. I agree more should be done to make male victims less stigmatized, but I think that would be better done by men, for it's also sadly true that men are hurt by the patriarchy too. The sooner they realize this the better for everyone.

[CatherineMacauley]

Pressed send too soon.

You see, from my point of view, rape as a crime is the ultimate expression of unequal relations between the sexes. One person who thinks that their desire/need whatever is more important that another's and that the other person only exists to satisfy them.

In a world where there was no inequality of this nature, it would never be acceptable to invade someone physically just because they can ( for reasons of unequal force or whatever makes them able to ignore someone's wishes).

Patriarchy enforces the idea of this fundamental inequality between people. It is unfair to all and benefits some more than others. Women can do horrible things just as readily as men if they are in position to do it. It is just that usually the power relations are not that way around, which is reflected in the statistics quoted.

I want to destroy this inequality. I don't think it can be done until we recognize how harmful it is to all.

[FrothyDragon]

for flip's sake, Eccles. Read this

Under UK law, it is impossible for a woman to rape another woman or a man. They may be able to sexually assault someone, but they can't rape.

I'm not trying to minimise the experience of the people who have been the victim of a sexual assault by a woman, but it's not rape. The police wouldn't arrest the woman and charge her with rape; she'd be charged with sexual assault. Now stop derailing the discussion.

As for men who have been raped by other men, the stigma comes from the patriarchy itself. The patriarchy is that intent on building it's image of what a rape victim looks like, so it can find ways to blame rape victims. The more rape myths are challenged, the less victim blaming and stereotypes occur, and the easier it is for people to accept there are male victims as well.

But this is not a discussion about male on male rape. This was a discussion about a highly effective poster campaign, which got derailed by the MRA's once a-bloody-gain.

[ecclesvet]

I know that, Frothy - earlier in the thread I acknowledged that female-on-male rape statistics were near impossible to find since they don't legally exist. That might be changing in the future; I think America just changed their legal definition? But as a feminist, my definition of rape is just "non-consensual sex"; that's also a definition I've seen other people use here, because it includes stuff like a husband nagging his wife into sex, or a woman knowing that if she refuses he'll go into a sulk, etc. So by that definition, women can rape men.

I'm not derailing the discussion. I am literally talking about this campaign, and my minor criticism of it. I am 100% on topic. Apparently other posters just can't believe that someone might not toe the Official Feminist Party Line?, even though I've said again and again that I support this campaign and others like it, even if maybe there might be a case that the portrayals of rape scenarios these campaigns presents exclude a small category of rape victims, and that maybe that should be addressed.

SQ, I never asked women to turn their attention away. I don't even think it's a shift in concentration/attention - it's just pointing out a blind spot we have in our view of rape victims.

I reported your last post by the way. "Would you just do it to people with ovarian cancer, probably." That was hugely upsetting, for personal reasons.

[Dworkin]

When it stays on topic, this is a great discussion and I think Basil has changed my mind.

@Catherine love your posts and I often quote wikipedia as dickipedia.

[SardineQueen]

FGS eccles your first post on here asked why this campaign ignored female rapists and said that in your eyes it minimised the experiences of men and women who are raped by women.

If that is not a clear derailment then I do not know what is.

If I were to go around reporting all the posts saying that we should forget about male violence against women and concentrate on female violence on men instead, as they are hugely upsetting to me for personal reasons, then certain posters wouldn't have any posts on here ever.

Of course women who have been subjected to sexual violence by men find this topic personal. Which is why so many get utterly fucked off when time and time again we are told not to talk about it, talk about something else instead, it's out of order to talk about this, X is a much bigger problem and we must talk about that instead. It is so wearing.

[chibi]

Fwiw i no longer acknowledge those posts, sardinequeen

Anyone who thinks i ought to be discussing x,y,z instead is cordially invited to start their own thread, which i will also tbh ignore

rape of men by men, women, women is very serious indeed, i am v supportive of anyone's efforts to combat it, but i will focus my energies on the liberation of women from male violence

everyone is likewise free to choose how to spend their time and energy, i wish them well

[ecclesvet]

SQ, my first post was about what I liked and didn't like about the campaign.

If that is not clearly an on-topic response then I do not know what is.

Most posters manage to post here without personal attacks. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, but I draw the line at people saying they disagree with me and that I would probably tell female cancer victims to "shut the fuck up".

I didn't report your post just because it was upsetting; I reported it because it was upsetting and a personal attack. I mentioned the upset because I've let personal attacks go unreported because they didn't bother me - this one did.

"Which is why so many get utterly fucked off when time and time again we are told not to talk about it"

Never said that.

"talk about something else instead"

Never said that.

"it's out of order to talk about this"

Never said that.

"X is a much bigger problem and we must talk about that instead"

Never said that.

"It is so wearing."

Quite. Imagine how it must feel to non-'traditional' victims who never see any acknowledgement that what happened to them is worth speaking up about. Indeed, when the possibility of that acknowledgement is floated, other people shoot it down because those victims are too much of a minority to deserve support. Must be 'wearing' at the least?

[chibi]

You should start a new thread ecclesvet so that you can explore these issues further, i don't think this thread has the scope for it

[ecclesvet]

I think I'll post where I like, thanks, chibi.

[chibi]

i like how the campaign puts the spotlight on men, and does not make women responsible for their own rapes, and shifts the whole dynamic away from the extremes - unless he jumped out of a bush and had fangs, he can't be a rapist, unless she was a virgin on her way to choir practice, she can't have been raped

to clarify the sexual assault vs rape issue, i am pretty sure that rape as a category of crime doesn't exist in canada; what we call rape would be sexual assault there (i think, it is many years since i lived there)

this is a good start. The police in this province particularly (though everywhere, really) have an appalling track record on taking sexual assaults seriously, especially where they have been committed against women in the sex industry, and First Nations women


some of this contributed no doubt to the serial killer Picton getting away with it for so long.

the police have a lot of atoning, self-criticism, and practice changing to do

this is a start, and it is exciting to see that it has had an appreciable effect

[ecclesvet]

"thecurvature.com/2010/06/11/rape-male-victims-and-why-we-need-to-care/

"Here?s the thing: if you?re going to go around erasing survivors, it?s pretty difficult to erase only the ones you want to. You can?t come up with a good reason why male rape survivors don?t count without also erasing some women rape survivors or survivors of other genders. If it?s about the rapist having oppressive power based in gender over the victim, you erase women who have been raped by women or by people of non-binary genders. If it?s about penises, you erase women who have penises, men who don?t, and victims who were raped with something other than a penis. If it?s about men having so much power in society and you just being understandably really angry about that, it?s impossible to make a non-oppressive argument that white rape survivors, straight rape survivors, cis rape survivors, abled rape survivors, and so on, shouldn?t also be erased.

In short, you can?t come up with a good reason why any rape survivor doesn?t count without creating a bullshit litmus test that damages us all.

It?s absolutely acceptable to center a particularly oppressed group when talking about rape, especially when you belong to that group yourself. I find it entirely acceptable and even positive for women to focus on rape committed against women, and to not be constantly compelled to talk about men, who are in a position of relative privilege. I find it similarly acceptable and positive for trans people of whatever gender to focus on rape committed against other trans people, and to not be constantly harassed about caring more about cis survivors. I find it acceptable and positive for people with disabilities to talk about sexual violence specifically committed against other people with disabilities, and to not have to deal with constant reminders that abled people are raped, too.

And I honestly have not the slightest clue why anyone would think that I might want to take that from them.

But actively denying those survivors you don?t center is a different story. Castigating someone else for talking about them ever, and for even calling their experiences rape, is an entirely different subject. Outright saying that you do not care if they are raped may indeed be an expression of righteous anger, but it?s sure as hell not getting us anywhere, collectively. Ejecting other survivors from a larger community of survivors is alienating, as is also attempting to eject those who dare mention their existence.

No one should be expected to care more about male survivors of rape than any other survivors, or even to care just as much. But if we really believe in the right of others to define their own experiences, if we really think that sexual violence is wrong, and if we really think that rape apologism and denialism is a destructive force both personally and socially, we do still have to care."

[SardineQueen]

ecclesvet

a. you are not the only poster on this thread who my posts are aimed at, so why think it is all about you.

b. that thing you linked. "It?s absolutely acceptable to center a particularly oppressed group when talking about rape, especially when you belong to that group yourself. I find it entirely acceptable and even positive for women to focus on rape committed against women, and to not be constantly compelled to talk about men, who are in a position of relative privilege."

Great Maybe we can talk about that then.

[Xenia]

It's all very simple. More men commit violence against women so the campaigns rightly should target men and they do. I am sure most men and women support them.

In Turkey women are being taught to shoot which sounds a great idea (as so very very many have been shot by male partners this year).

[ecclesvet]

SQ

a) you mentioned me by name

b) perhaps you missed the part where it then said "But actively denying those survivors you don?t center is a different story. Castigating someone else for talking about them ever, and for even calling their experiences rape, is an entirely different subject ...Ejecting other survivors from a larger community of survivors is alienating, as is also attempting to eject those who dare mention their existence."