Feminist nude painting - what is your favourite portrayal of a woman's body?

[Imperfectionist]

The breast implant issue and re-ignition of the debate about modern ideals of a woman's body, especially a much-quoted survey in which school children shown photos of nude women picked the ones with implants as looking most natural, has made me want to make sure we have plenty of representations of normal (and beautiful) female forms in my house, for my daughter.

I do not read and certainly do not have in the house any magazines or media with images of women looking like they've had extensive surgery. My daughter (only three years old) often sees me (a normal shaped size 12 with post-breastfeeding boobs) naked and has good healthy female role models around her. We have lots of pictures on the wall, framed prints from galleries I've visited over the years, and I would like to choose a beautiful nude painting to join them, showing breasts in all of their natural glory.

I've racked my brains, and googled, and wondered if one of you might recommend your favourite portrayal of a non-surgically-enhanced naked woman in paint. The classical artists are sometimes too idealised; and often had barbie boobs even back in Michaelangelo's day. Some nudes are too sexually suggestive for what I'm looking for. I want a painting of a naked woman who radiates strength and beauty, who is comfortable in her skin, with no hint of voyeurism or titillation by the artist.

So... any recommendations for a feminist-inspiring nude painting? Hopefully one I can buy online from the National Gallery or online!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Ask me what, sorry, thunder? I wasn't ignoring you, I just didn't realize you had anything else to say.

My point is very simple - I have read John Berger's books, but sadly since he is a man, I personally do not feel comfortable taking lessons from him about feminist understandings of the male gaze.

I think that is is not really possible to advance a feminist argument for male theorists pontificating on the male gaze.

Others are perfectly entitled to disagree.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Btw, thunder, are you sure you actually posted the questions and didn't just think them? You haven't actually addressed me, or used a question mark at all since I last posted so I'm not sure how I was meant to realize you were still asking me questions.

[thunderboltsandlightning]

Once again, I didn't say it was a feminist understanding of the male gaze, I said he offered a male understanding of the male gaze. When men tell the truth about how male power operates, it's useful for women. That's the actual truth, not the male supremacist version, in case you're confused.

Also I think it's very odd to dismiss men's work out of hand. The question is whether it's correct or not. I think you're misunderstanding feminism if you think men have nothing to offer. What they do have to offer is the truth about male power and how it operates, which women are never allowed to be directly privy to. So when men do tell the truth it's useful, like Berger. Unfortunately it happens rarely - but the more often that men betray male power the better. I think what's happening here is that you're getting confused with the idea that men can't be leaders in feminism, which is correct, with the idea that men never have anything useful to say about male supremacy, which doesn't really make any sense at all from whatever feminist point of view you're coming from.

The questions I asked, which you ignored were - do you dismiss Dworkin and MacKinnon given the fact that they also supported the Black Panthers like Berger? And also did you actually watch the film?

Also you didn't answer this:

""The rest is just convincing me"

What rest?"

So yeah, quite a few questions that you just didn't feel the need to answer, despite the fact it was my post you were challenging. Maybe you find it difficult to read my posts or something.

You certainly seemed to completely misinterpret what I said upthread claiming that I "really didn't want to recommend him" which was the total opposite to what i was actually saying. Just bizarre really.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I know you didn't say he offered a feminist understanding. I didn't suggest you did, only that, for me, the fact he's a man and I'm a feminist makes me less keen to look to him as an authority here. I think given this is the feminism section, it's a fair point to make.

Personally, I don't think that a man is equipped to understand what it is like being a woman, and for me, this is really important when we're thinking about the male gaze. You're entitled to disagree, of course. You're not, I think, entitled to take the piss.

I would like to leave this topic now, since this is not a thread you started, and you don't seem to want to engage with the OP, or with me, just to insist that my posts don't answer your questions. I'm sorry they don't, but I have done my best and think it will derail the thread to get further off-topic. I hope that is ok with the OP.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I don't agree. However, if, OP, I was derailing, I'm really sorry.

thunder, I will continue to post exactly how I choose, thank-you. You don't get to tell me to shut up. If you feel that one of us is under-informed, look to yourself, and I will do the same, and with luck eventually we'll both learn a lot.

[thunderboltsandlightning]

"if you feel that one of us is under-informed, look to yourself"

Do you really believe that? It's certainly appears to be what you've been trying to insinuate with all these posts of yours.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I think there are huge areas about which you are amazingly well-informed, and brilliant. I know there is no-one who can do what you do by way of standing up for women who're struggling and post to ask for help. I respect that hugely.

[thunderboltsandlightning]

We're talking about whether you believe I'm uninformed about feminism, in particular radical feminism. You just described Relationships there.

I've already seen the damning with faint praise the last time when I left, when a so-called feminist here said I'd be missed ......in Relationships.

Don't give a politician's answer, be honest.

[WidowWadman]

See, I thought it would be good for both girls and boys to realise that a natural body can be beautiful and the photoshopped imagery we're surrounded by is unrealistic. That's why I thought the gender of the child doesn't matter much.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I am not trying to set myself up as a radical feminist, or an authority.

I would just like to be able to express an opinion without being shouted down and told it is stupid, or having lies quoted, like the one above which is nothing that I ssaid. Is that really so hard?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Ok. I went off and calmed down.

I was out of line. I should not have risen to the bait and answered, since I can see my answer is hurtful.

I did answer your questions, both of them. I told you I personally don't want to look to Berger here. And I told you that I do think support of or association with a sexist group may come across differently if it's a woman (like Dworkin) from the way it comes across if it's a man (like Berger).

You're entitled to disagree, and so is anyone else. What is IMO not on is to take offense at me stating an opinion and to start telling me to shut up. I know that you have a lot of knowledge and understanding in certain areas, and that you (rightly) command a lot of respect on here as a result of the help you've given to a lot of women. But you don't have any authority to tell me I'm a bad feminist. I find it hurtful, and I think you maybe don't realize that it comes across as hurtful and upsetting. I do feel like you constantly tell me to shut up, and unless I post in praise of you, you take issue with me posting in response to you at all. That's not fair. You and I may have different views, but it's not on to insist yours is right and I should shut up, just because it seems that way to you. It seems that way to me, too, and to anyone who's in an argument. That's how communication works.

So, that's why I was getting upset and why I reacted as I did. I am really sorry to the OP that I got into it and didn't just walk away.

[KRITIQ]

I can't recall if Paula Rego has done any nudes, but I love the way she depicts the female form and imho, a few of her prints would be a lovely counterpoint to depictions of the female body in the three ways it is commonly featured when displayed in public spaces - a.) something shameful that needs to be hidden, b.) something that exists to be enjoyed, consumed, etc. by men, or c.) something that looks nothing like the bodies of most real women (e.g. hairless, elongated, thin with large, uplifted breasts.)

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I have said what I think before. I do not think you should keep pushing me to say it again. It isn't good for either of us. Let's just leave it.

[KRITIQ]

Folks, seriously, this isn't looking good from any angle. Surely let it go or find a better forum for addressing an issue between a couple of members, imho.

[thunderboltsandlightning]

Do you have a response to Berger other than "he's a man and he supported the Black Panthers"? Possibly an actual assessment of what he was discussing given that you're taking issue with him?

Because that would actually be relevant to this thread, given that he was talking about the female nude in art and its meaning, and so is this thread.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

As I said, personally, I would not want to look to Berger, because he is a man, and because, to me, the fact he supported the Black Panthers at a time when their subsequent female leader said they were very sexist is a concern.

These do not have to be concerns to you. It is a matter of opinion. Other people have also advanced opinions, such as that the OP might be better to look at art by women, or photographs of herself.

As I have said, personally, I'm not comfortable with the argument that art showing the female body can ever really be extricated from objectification of women. But that is my personal view. I don't need you or the OP to share it, and I don't mind if you disagree. That's what we here for - debating and thinking and coming to a position.

I thought my post was relevant to the thread, and if it wasn't, I can only apologize to the OP for that.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

The way I see it, it's like the threads about reading books by women, or listening to music by women. Does that mean we think men can't write decent books or compose good music? Of course not. It doesn't have to be that simple.

I was hoping someone would recommend a female art critic or art historian, and if anyone can, that would be nice.