Do you remember a specific moment where you realised that being female put you at a disadvantage?

[ChickensHaveNoEyebrows]

I have three.

1. I was about 8, and my best friend was a boy. We went to his house to play and I remember being so envious of his toys. He had lego, a real tool kit, a chemistry set, a metal detector etc. These were Boys Things, and I remember thinking how unfair that was.
   
   
2. From the age of 9 I begged my Dad to teach me to play 'Risk', because he often played it with his friends. He fobbed me off for years, and then one day I came home and found him teaching my 9 year old brother. Apparently, 'Risk' was a Man's Game.
   
   
3. At age 13, I was moaning about washing up the lunch things. My mother and aunt laughed and told me I'd best get used to it. When I said that if I got married, my husband would also wash up, they practically wet themselves with mirth.
   
   
   All of these events made me feel so frustrated and angry. In fact, I spent a large part of my childhood thinking I must have been born in the wrong body because 'proper' girls didn't hanker after a saw, or desire to conquer america, or find washing up boring as fuck. You?

[vezzie]

pointissima - Joseph & his technibloody was originally an oratorio written for a boys' school (without Mrs P who was added later) so the unfairness was choosing it for a mixed school production.
One of my first was a thespy one too. In Mrs Bolger's class (so I must have been 5) we did a christmas production where the lead role was Ministar, who played some key role in the announcing of Jesus' birth. Various people read bits for this while while the teachers chose and in the end I was told that I was the best but someone else who was nearly as good was getting the part because he was a boy. I was staggered - not at first because I wanted the part but because I had come to identify with it so strongly I couldn't see how you could think the character was a boy (there were no pronouns!). When I responded in all honesty "but I thought ministar was a girl!" they laughed at me in a "you would" kind of way thinking it was all about my ego.
I was given the second best part which was that of an angel - a little bit of solemn speaking, but none of the fun of ministar, who was funny and accident prone. My mum made a costume for me out of a petticoat and I was given strict instructions to make sure it was on backwards because the bra cups would then be hidden under my wings. At the end, Father Farrell (the parish priest) put a pound note in Ministar's collection box and 50p in mine, saying " - and one for Archangel Michael". SO I WAS STILL NOT GOOD ENOUGH AS A GIRL.

Many other things much more serious have happened since but I think that's funny and I remember it all in bizarre detail.
The unfairness at home with housework annoys me to this day because my mum resents it, but did it to us.

[letmehelp]

1991, when my HR manager noticed I was wearing an engagement ring....

Before that I always believed (and still do really) I could achieve anything. My father always treated me as the son he never had and it never occurred to me that I was supposed to be different to men. I did sciences at school and was the only girl in most of my O-Level classes and all my A-Level ones. Those lads just treated me like on of them and TBH, so have most of the men I've worked with since. It's just that one HR manager and even the men though the was a

[BootyMum]

I also remember Sunday lunches at my grandparents where the women were stuck in the kitchen washing up whilst the men lounged about with a beer and the football on tv. I remember how I was expected to help whilst my younger brother joined the men in their relaxation

My parents also considered private school for my younger brother but not for me.

My parents taught my brother to drive but decided it wasn't necessary for me [and I paid for my own lessons]

My parents treating my younger brother with respect and as a valued member of the family whilst I was "not to be trusted" and "needed protection" hence I was restricted and patronised as being merely female and somewhat lesser and inferior.

I was often incoherent with rage as a child and teenager in my family with it's rigid gender based rules and beliefs

[GrimmaTheNome]

It's interesting, isn't it, how we've all at some point had that dawning realisation that we are living within a system which wants to dictate to us what it is to be female

I'm not sure I really have, TBH - perhaps I'm just thickskinned enough to know what I wanted to do and not give a damn.

But, if we're living in a system which dictates what it is to be female, the chaps get dictated to too. Far easier for a girl to do physics in the 70s than the one brave lad who chose to do Dom Sci instead of Technical Drawing (I suppose I vaguely wished I could have done TD but realised cooking was actually going to be far more useful.)

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

That is very true - men still often have a rotten deal out of it all. My little brother is a lovely bloke, very laid back but he does a job where he keeps control of some scary fuckers who're sometimes off their heads on drugs, violent, you name it. Yet still, because he is kind to his girlfriend and taught her to cook, and because he thinks he might want to be a SAHD when they have children, both my dad and his girlfriend's dad tend to take the mickey out of him and/or see him as 'nice but not successful'. My dad one time when he was tipsy admitted that he worries about him 'being a bit feminine'.

[NotADudeExactly]

When, as a very socially awkward teen, I joined the computer club. My (lovely, male) teacher had suggested I might enjoy it as other kids who were just as nerdy and socially awkward as me found it to be a place where their geeky ideas were actually appreciated and taken seriously.

The thing was that all the other nerdy kids were apparently boys. I ended up breaking into all sorts of stuff in order to impress them - and they still wouldn't take me seriously.

Then again when I realized that I could either look nice and be taken for a bimbo or have people bitching about how I was ugly. This triggered a two year phase during which I shaved my head and wore yellow eyeshadow with tons of black liner. It didn't help much.

FWIW, I'm a software developer now; AFAIK everyone else in the computer club has a business studies degree and some lower management job now. I do gloat a bit at that.

[oranges]

On the flip side...my parents could afford one set of private school fees - chose me instead of my brother as I was the eldest and as a girl, needed "protecting" from the rough kids at the comprehensive.
I loved English lit and history - they were desperate for me to be a scientist.
The only real sexism I remember is that if I did well at school, its because I worked hard, but my brother was "a natural genius" who failed his exams because they bored him...

[TipOfTheSlung]

Aged 20 and being asked by an (soon to be) employer if I was planning of getting married and having children soon. I said no, worked for them for two weeks and got engaged during that time. I got married and pregnant the next year.Would have served him bloody right

I was one of the lucky ones. When asking if I could have a (miniature) tool set like one of boys in my class being told no by my dad... because it was a waste as I could just use his. I spent my childhood, riding bikes, playing cops and robbers and climbing trees. I don't remember my brother doing any of that

[garlicbutty]

I agree with what you wrote earlier, jellybeans - we're imprinted by what our parents show us about life. It takes a lot of work to change that, and I'm not surprised few people choose to do it (even if it would be helpful.) So important to set a healthy example, for girls and boys ...

I just gave myself the willies, imagining your mum with my dad (war) and your dad with my mum (misery)

[ComradeJing]

I really never came up against obvious sexism as a child or teen and I'm in my mid 20s. My parents treated my brother and I equally and my single sex school pushed us to do everything including textiles and woodwork stuff. My SDCs school (in Aus) have mixed sports even so no more football for boys and netball for girls.

However, at my first job all the management were men. Since having my DD my DH is invited out all the time but I'm never invited. Even at New Years when I was pregnant DH was expected to go out whilst I stayed home.

[ChickensHaveNoEyebrows]

True, Grimma. I suppose I was so angry at having restrictions put on me because of my vagina ownership that I found it quite hard to see where my brother was disadvantaged. Perhaps he was, but it was in a different way. I have two DS's, so I can't ever test how I'd be if I had DC of different sexes. I hope I wouldn't follow the same pattern.

[HeavyHeidi]

Thank god I had a sister and my parents always expected a lot form us, there was never any "you can't do that because you are a girl" attitude.

So imagine my surprise when I was in early 20's and a potential employer during a job interview, after I had mentioned salary expectations, said: "But for this money, we can already hire a man!"

Or, also in early 20's, I witnessed how a male and a female manager had a public disagreement about something. Voices were raised, both could have been more professional, but acted pretty much the same.

The interesting part was the reaction of the people (mostly women!) who also saw it. About him they said: "Well, he has always had a strong personality, it's really good to have someone here who stands up for his ideas". About her: "See, this is the reason women should be managers, they simply cannot handle it, too emotional.."


And when we mentioned during some party that if we happen to have kids, DH is the one staying at home - as he works from home anyway and I make most of the money, it makes total sense. People laughed like this was the most absurd and ridiculous thing, surely we must be kidding, the one without penis has to change the diapers.

[NormaSnorks]

I never felt at a disadvantage at school; my mum had a career, and my brother is gay, so I don't think we had strong 'male'/ sexist stuff going on around us.

However the one occasion that sticks in my mind is when I was about 23, and a graduate management trainee for a big multinational. I was flying to the US on business, and was lucky enough to be upgraded from business class to First .

As I sat down in my seat, and tucked my leather briefcase under the seat, the man next to me said, "Hello... so what does YOUR daddy do then fro you to be travelling First class?"

I was completely gobsmacked

[skrumle]

getting my period - i had problem periods as a teenager and even ended up seeing gynae consultants. i remember thinking at the time that being a woman was crap.

other than that though, when i was young - very little. not being allowed to be an altar server bothered me a bit but only on principle, didn't actually want to do it! my parents have always had an a-typical set up where since i was about 5 my dad has done most of the housework/cooking because he runs his own business out of the house whereas my mum has always worked out of the house. i have two sisters and a brother and there are a lot of women in my family generally (my gran was the oldest of 9 sisters) so the women tend to dominate family gatherings - the idea of women being quiet and submissive is totally alien to me even though i personally loathe confrontation and dislike being the centre of attention.

when i started to have relationships with guys though i realised just how much society expects women to sacrifice/compromise - a bit like SGB's (?) post on LRD's thread about the computer. i think there is an expectation generally that if a couple have an "issue" it's up to the woman to either give in or find another solution. and it's not the men i've been involved with who have given me that message it's magazines/newspapers/other women in the main.

[keynesian]

Beginning of school year 10 beginning O level/CSE options (this was 1977). I'd chosen Motor mechanics as a CSE choice - the only female to do so - but after 3 weeks I was persuaded that I should change to Home Economics...

[Ormirian]

When I was about 13 and at a school disco. It was a girl's school but they arranged discos and parties with the boys from 'suitable' private schools. The fuss that was made to look our best - even the girls who were usually worried only about their work - everyone seemed to be reduced to giggling simpletons. The boys were all waiting outside the hall while we filed over from the main school - and we were all judged like prize cows, lots of whispered comments and appraising glances. So humiliating and infuriating.To me it said "you are a woman and as such no matter what pretences you might make to academic prowess, or sporting success and aspirations to future success, your only importance is as to whether some man finds you attractive". As a way of saying 'Woman, know your place' it was second to none.

[kalidasa]

Two academic examples. Gowns at Oxford as an undergraduate - men got measured and given an actual size, women (or at least small-ish women like me) just got given the smallest one. They are cut to be worn on men's shoulders, on top of a man's jacket and slide off continuously; they also ruin any kind of smart female outfit (e.g. cocktail dress, evening dress) making you look untidy and unputtogether. In general, 'sub fusc' - the ridiculous outfit compulsory for exams/other formal occasions: men wear a dark suit and white tie and look silly (because of the gown) but unquestionably otherwise smart, tidy and professional; the women's equivalent makes everyone look like lumpy, untidy waitresses. SO MUCH FURY!!

Also in Oxford - the pre-term dinner for staff and partners at the beginning of my first academic job (in 2006). In the first five minutes two older women both asked "now, my dear, and who are you with?". IN 2006!!

[Empjusa]

I have noticed a real marked difference in the way different age groups react. All of the problems I've had, all the times I've been made to feel inferior due to a lack of a penis, it's always been men over a certain age.

Men my age tend not to be so damn sexist.

[GeekCool]

Some things:

*I've been to the docs, someone will invariably ask 'what did HE say?'
*Talking about work, again people will ask if my boss is a 'good bloke'
*Men who I ask a question to, respond to my DH and not me.

[NormaSnorks]

oh GeekCool - that reminds me about a friend of mine (with a PHD from Cambridge).

She & her DH went to look at a pretentious private school for their DC and had meeting with the Headmaster. He'd obviously only briefly glanced at his notes, and when he greeted them he made a beeline for her husband saying "Dr xyxyxyx.... How lovely to meet you..."
Thankfully her DH is a good bloke, and just raised his eyebrows and said, "Hello, I'm Mr xyxyxyxy.....this is my wife, Dr xxyxyxyxyx...."

Friend said she just smiled sweetly at the Head who was suddenly very flustered...

[GeekCool]

Norma It's crazy isn't it? I can forgive most things, it's the assumption I hate.
I have an intense dislike of adverts. Barry of cillit bang for example shouting at all us women how to clean the washing properly for the sake of poor man-kind . Or any breakfast cereal ad where mum is prancing round the kitchen whilst dad and kids eat.

Thankfully I have a superb DH (in every way, not specifically on feminism) who gets just as pissed off.

[GrimmaTheNome]

Some of the examples given of other people's sexist attitudes - do they necessarily disadvantage you though? (which was what the OP asked) That surely (in some cases) depends on your own attitude and reaction. To take a fairly trivial example from Norma - the headmaster's mistake wrongfooted him not her.

Obviously there are all too many cases of women being genuinely disadvantaged but quite often nowadays its not that hard to rise above a bit of crap.

[theothersparticus]

@VikingBlood & @ TheSmallClanger, I remember wanting to go around with no top on but I was never allowed , but I wanted to do that because I wanted loads of tattoos and be able to walk around with no top so everyone could see them, I also wanted a goatee like the mirror Spock. It wasn't so much that I wanted to be a man, I just wanted to enjoy these 'male' things.

Ah well, one out of 3 ain't bad (although I'd still quite fancy a goatee )

[GeekCool]

Grimma I think they do. Surely the perception that because we are female it wouldn't cross someone's mind that we could be the doctor we are at a disadvantage. Already a judgement has been made about us, based on our gender and nothing else.

[GrimmaTheNome]

Geek - as a PhD I've come across that sort of thing myself but I've never felt at a disadvantage because of it. The person who made the daft assumption may feel like a bit of a wally but that's not my problem. It says something about them, nothing about me.