Do women have to like a women to support her?

[Amodmillymum]

I worked on the film Restrepo - a documentary about soldiers in Afghanistan and I interviewed the amazing Tim Hetherington (RIP) (google A Modern Military Mother and Tim Hetherington if you want to see it.)

He said in his interview to me that the soldiers in the outpost hated each other but they would die for each other and that to him was was more than comradeship it was 'brotherhood'. The male brotherhood is a very loyal group and men protect each other and they protect their position.

I feel the sisterhood is divided and that women have to like someone to support them - actually male or female. Didn't Tony Blair do well in that first election back in the day - I am not sure if any of your remember the Cosmo - John Major and Tony Blair interview - pre-election? Do you think you could support a women if you didn't like her? Do you think that women could unite to have an equal share in the decision making in Govt? I am thinking 50:50 ratios between the numbers of male and female MPs?

[BonnieLassie]

I don't think I want hormones affecting policy.

How do selection procedures give an unfair advantage to men?

[carminagoesprimal]

Op: - The army is completely different to normal life - the men ( and women in certain countries ) know exactly what's expected of them.
In general - men will only support other men if they consider them worthy - and they're just as likely to support a woman over a man if she's talking sense and the man is talking bollocks.
In politics - gender is immaterial.

would I stand by a woman just because she was a woman? - no I wouldn't.

[BonnieLassie]

How many of "Blair's Babes" are still MPs today?

[carminagoesprimal]

I'm not sure, but I remember reading a follow up article and quite a few had left politics completely - couldn't handle the pressure/long hours.

[Amodmillymum]

"In general - men will only support other men if they consider them worthy - and they're just as likely to support a woman over a man if she's talking sense and the man is talking bollocks.
In politics - gender is immaterial. "

I would disagree - I think the majority of men don't stand up for women they believe are worthy because they are more worried about what other men will think then doing the right thing.

The brotherhood is a tight network and although it is being slowly corroded women are a far cry from fair and equal representation. Yes - the military is an extreme example of this but i think there are many male collectives that endorse male behaviour and cultures.

In politics - gender is not immaterial. In UK - Westminster is the most wholly unsuitable venue for a govt. It should be turned into a tourist attraction. The house is governed by rules and traditions that stifle change. It's not so much about Govt as it is about legacy and history.

The Law is run by men (and some women) in wigs and gowns. It's a circus.

There is a huge need for reform across many systems to enable a more equal access. But turkeys don't vote for Christmas - men are not idiots. They have got it sorted and they are not going to hand over the power easily.

Men like having women as their servants - it works for them.

[sunshineandbooks]

BonnieLassie I meant hormones as in female biology not PMT.

Why do selection procedures discriminate against women? According to the Fawcett Society, political parties too often fail to adequately respond to the significant barriers women meet wherever they want to stand for parliament. They have summed up those impediments as the "four Cs": confidence, culture, childcare and cash.

Politics still has a strong 'old boys network' element to it (if you doubt me check out the current Cabinet). This is changing and improving, but it's an uphill struggle for women.

Secondly, the long-hours culture, the timing and structure of debates and meetings etc make it much harder for anyone with caring responsibilities (i.e. mainly women). THere is no real reason this cannot be changed to be more flexible for families, other than tradition. Traditions are all well and good apart from when they form part of an active discrimination. Quite a lot of the more enlightened male MPs support the change to more flexible hours, too. This isn't women whining and being unreasonable. THere is a growing recognition that our political set-up has arisen from a different age and is out of touch with the demands of an equal society in a modern world.

Finally, to get anywhere in politics you need cash, and lots of it. To some extent you could make this an elitist argument rather than a gender-based one, but seeing as women are disproportionately represented among the poor, that's why it becomes a gender issue.

[BonnieLassie]

"I would disagree - I think the majority of men don't stand up for women they believe are worthy because they are more worried about what other men will think then doing the right thing."
Voting is private. Plenty of men supported Margaret Thatcher openly when she was PM.

"The brotherhood is a tight network"
Now you're being ridiculous. You're making men sound like the mafia.

[ComradeJing]

"Look at Harriet Harman. What does she have to do with Peckham? I think quotas would just to more women like this in parliament, which would be terrible for politics in general."

What do you mean by Women like this?

I agree with the poster who said that there is a difference between a "brotherhood" created in a war situation and the general "sisterhood" of women.

I think it comes down to whether you are a "choices" feminist tbh. I don't think that all freely consented to choices made by women are automatically feminist and I do think that some choices are damaging to feminism. There are choices that I make myself which I understand to be damaging to feminism reminds self to book monthly bikini wax so I don't think it is possible to automatically support a woman.

With regards to your X vs Y points OP I think that many "wars" between women are created as bullshit by the patriarchy to give us something to worry about instead of getting on with important things.

[carminagoesprimal]

The main barrier to breaking into top flight politics is money and connections - not gender. I could reel off 10's of female MP's but I'd struggle to name one who went to the local comp.

[Amodmillymum]

"Now you're being ridiculous. You're making men sound like the mafia."

That's a bit personal. How you interpret the statement is down to you not me.

Men are the ruling majority. They are a collective. They on the whole work to serve their own interests both directly and indirectly.

If women are the sisterhood then men are the brotherhood. The nepotism of the male dominated 'old school tie network' is not new and it still exists.

[BonnieLassie]

"What do you mean by Women like this?"
Women that use the office of MP to fight battles which have nothing to do with the job they are employed to do. Harman doesn't give a shit about the people of Peckham. The fact that she felt the need to wear a stab-proof vest to walk around there tells you all you need to know. She simply uses the people, because she knows that it's one of the safest Labour seats in the country. She doesn't have to worry about pissing off male voters (and a fair amount of women). If she was made to fight a more traditional Labour seat in the north, she'd get voted out in a heartbeat.

If you want to increase the number of women MPs, increase the pool of people that they are drawn from. If you insist on having equal number of MPs despite the pool that female candidates are drawn from being far smaller, you will end up with substandard MPs that aren't up to the job, and the reputation of all female politicians will be damaged.

[Amodmillymum]

We are doomed to be ruled by men forever.......:(

[sunshineandbooks]

BonnieLassie that's surely an argument about MPs generally.

On the whole they are not representative of the general population. Gender is not the only area. Race and socio-economic class are also under-represented. They all need dealing with. That doesn't mean that gender is not a good place to start though, since 52% of the population are female (a figure far higher than those of ethnic minorities, for example).

[carminagoesprimal]

Amodmillymum: Theresa May is home secretary - that's a pretty powerful position.

[sunshineandbooks]

Carmina* she wasn't voted into that position. Same as Thatcher. Both were elected as MPs to represent their constituency and placed in their cabinet/leadership roles by their own party.

The evidence suggests that when women make it through the initial selection procedures they tend to do just as well as men; it's getting them through that first stage that is the problem.

[carminagoesprimal]

Do more women want to be politicians though? I'm not too sure.
Something ridiculous like just 3% of primary school teachers are male - that statistic never changes, men just aren't interested in early years education - you can't drag people in off the streets - and if you have to start bringing in legislation to change that ( all male short lists for teachers ) all you'll get is women out of a job and freedom of choice whacked over the head.

[sunshineandbooks]

Teaching (particularly pre-school and primary level) is considered a low-status profession. There is a great deal more talk about how to recruit more men into it than there is about recruiting women into politics.

During the recession the number of male teaching applicants has doubled. It's a job men seem to want only when more traditional, better paid, higher status roles aren't so available anymore. Whereas the barrier for women in politics seem less that they don't want to and more that they can't juggle it with the demands of being a mother/carer. The same constraints just don't seem to apply for men.

When there is equal opportunity, then we can assume that it is down to choice. Not before.

[carminagoesprimal]

Well yes, ( although I thought the increase was mainly in secondary education ) and the reason given for the increase was - 'job security' - nothing wrong in that. And don't forget, just because you have more women in politics doesn't necessary follow that they'll be feminists or female friendly - some women will imitate men - and in certain cases eclipse them altogether ( think Thatcher ) - politics, in the main, attracts tough people.
& I must take a closer look a Swedish politics ( or is it Switzerland? ) they have 50/50 male:female MP's. - be interesting to see how they manage it.

[ThePosieParker]

There's another discussion about micro finance and how women are chosen to receive loans in Africa, over men, because they're more community based and it will benefit more people. So women in politics can only be win/win. I agree with Lenin, I would like to see quotas.

[carminagoesprimal]

Posie - I was having a discussion with my dh last night about gender differences - he believes women are the better gender - kinder, have more compassion and time for people, a lot less violent - generally nicer people, however - where politics is concerned, women have to toe the party line just like men - the Tory party ( for example ) will always be the Tory party no matter how many women are in it, it's not going to change its core values and beliefs because a few more women are in the party. If you want more women in politics as a purely symbolic gesture then fine - but that's all it would be. A Tory's a Tory whether male or female.

[ThePosieParker]

Perhaps not so much if there were more women.....then women can, well, be women.

[carminagoesprimal]

Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann are all the rage in the U.S -
Time will tell I guess..

[Amodmillymum]

Maybe there needs to be a Women's Party - then the politics don't have to represent a socio-economic patriarchal class system.

How do you set up a political party?

[carminagoesprimal]

Are you serious? - go girl!

you need to register your party with the electoral commission - that's it.
You'll need plenty of money though - a good name and an even better manifesto. - but it's not impossible.