Do women have to like a women to support her?

[Amodmillymum]

I worked on the film Restrepo - a documentary about soldiers in Afghanistan and I interviewed the amazing Tim Hetherington (RIP) (google A Modern Military Mother and Tim Hetherington if you want to see it.)

He said in his interview to me that the soldiers in the outpost hated each other but they would die for each other and that to him was was more than comradeship it was 'brotherhood'. The male brotherhood is a very loyal group and men protect each other and they protect their position.

I feel the sisterhood is divided and that women have to like someone to support them - actually male or female. Didn't Tony Blair do well in that first election back in the day - I am not sure if any of your remember the Cosmo - John Major and Tony Blair interview - pre-election? Do you think you could support a women if you didn't like her? Do you think that women could unite to have an equal share in the decision making in Govt? I am thinking 50:50 ratios between the numbers of male and female MPs?

[Amodmillymum]

Bobbanana -
"I agree with what AMumInScotland said in her response to your OP, many men don't have any sense of Brotherhood. Many women do have a sense of Sisterhood. The Armed forces isn't a good example of Brotherhood that can be applied generally, as in the modern Army we have now, women are part of the Brotherhood, and the soldiers on the ground don't differentiate between who their brothers are based upon gender. It's more a case of 'they're one of mine'."

That is not my observations of the military after 10 years of marriage but I am not actually in the military. Sometimes women are excepted but I have seen them being viewed as a liability. The military is a very old established institution, there is some change but it is slow and creaky.

[Amodmillymum]

PS: If you do pop over to ARRSE - please can you let me know how you get on. They are women hating dogs - well sort of - the reality is that they are fat, old ugly blokes who hide behind user names to talk a big game.

[Amodmillymum]

Wibblybibble - interestingly enough the military hate me for being too feminist. Here I am disgusting both ends of the specturm. Here's a thought why don't you go to this forum The Army Rumour Service and enlighten them about their errant ways. They are much better equipped than I am to talk candidly with you in the manner you seem to prefer and also I am not entirely sure what you are talking about. Also I am not in the military and would never choose to join it.

I was just making the manifesto up as I went along. I made that clear - feel free to draw up your own more equitable version. It's not so much about what as I an individual want but what the collective want. I was more initiating the debate.

[carminagoesprimal]

Absolutely BobBanana ( great name btw - sounds like a Sesame Street character ) -

My cat could win a Labour safe seat if you stuck a red rosette on him. - gender not important in politics.

[WibblyBibble]

Also, if you are married to someone in the military, you're supporting the rape and abuse of women by the UK military implicitly. You disgust me.

[WibblyBibble]

I don't see how a 'womens party' which would force poor women on benefits to only buy food and clothes, and have to use vouchers which stigmatise them and judging by current voucher systems be not properly accepted in some shops or impossible to use because you have to spend an exact amount benefits women in any way, sorry. If you want to make a womens party, why not try not being a classist sociopath? Poor women still need to buy books, toys for their children, etc. Just because someone's been abandoned/fled from a horrible ex while still having childcare responsibilities which mean they can't get paid work, doesn't mean they aren't capable of working out what to spend money on. There is no way in hell that I would support such an evil, poor-hating party, even if it claimed to be 'for women' (read: for rich bitches).

[Amodmillymum]

(((HUG))))

You have both made me so happy!!!

Finally, voices that reassure me that 'I am not alone'!!

Yes, I agree with you both wholeheartedly and passionately! I call it Aphrodite Culture - where a women is not allowed to be old, ugly and fat AND successful (unless you are funny - that is the caveat). Yet lots of men that are not aesthetically pleasing and are allowed to be successful without prejudice.

I am filled with hope now..

[garlicnutter]

I used to work for those magazines. Some of them are run by feminists, not many. I'd venture that none are financially backed by feminists. Their existence depends on advertising revenues. Consumer products make money by promoting an insecure need, which can supposedly be filled by the product.

The media, therefore, must create an editorial environment that reflects those messages. Many sneak a modicum of feminism in as well, but the magazine's ambience must support the advertisers or go out of business.

I really like the idea of one-day mass actions by women, as someone suggested on the Joan Smith thread: highlight the pay gap by paying 80p in the pound for everything one day! Another would be - just for one day - not to buy any fashion, beauty or fragrance products. Could women be rallied to do it? I don't think so. They'd lack confidence (seeking it fashion, beauty and fragrance ...) Sigh :(

[carminagoesprimal]

I agree, women may not be sufficiently represented in politics but they certainly are in the media - yet we still have 'womens magazines' telling us how to lose weight, look 10 years younger, have the shiniest sinks etc - these magazines are not run by politicians, they're run by intelligent women who know exactly what they're doing. These magazines are read by women who take more notice of them than they ever would a politician - what do we do about it? - I don't know.
The feminist movement needs a new direction, there's too much in-fighting and divisions for it to be a powerful political force anymore - I personally would tackle the media representation of women and the clothes designers who sexualise children through 'fashion' - and the way I'd tackle these issues is by not buying the products. Women have to take ownership for some of the problems, we can't sit around moaning about 'those terrible men' when it's us contributing to the system -

Just to add - there are millions of women whose main goal in life is to look 10 years younger and 10lbs lighter - most of them couldn't give a toss about social depravation, the Arab springs or the collapse of pound - they aren't interested in the least - so magazines will keep pumping out the crap because they know there's £££££££ to be made.

[garlicnutter]

With several significant caveats, carmina, I agree with you. Unfortunately the societal/media messages are a powerful force against feminism. We still need legal reforms, imo, but in general a different kind of feminism is called for by our times.

The strength of most 'feminist' politics is that they can improve quality of life and drive success for everybody not only women. I don't think anybody's selling this fact hard enough.

[carminagoesprimal]

..... and, you can't have women in parliament who are only there to serve the interests of women - some people would argue that's sexist - you have to enter politics to make life better for everyone.
Today, you have the power to change your own life - you don't have to rely on other women to do it for you ( we did in the past admittedly - but don't forget the suffragette movement had male support too ) what's holding women back today is peer pressure and media driven expectations and pressures - you don't have to buy into any of it. Politicians make decisions based on research and analysis - they watch us and go from there.

[carminagoesprimal]

HereBe - There were no female MP's 100 years ago - today 22% of MP's are women - that's a fantastic achievement.

[garlicnutter]

Now all you need to do is teach said toddler to type with toes

Rainbow Party already been done. WI good idea, imo.

[Amodmillymum]

Maybe we should start a Mumsnet campaign and join up with the WI and see if we can set up The Women's Party - I was then thinking the Multi-coloured Party or even The Rainbow Party with an emphasis on prioritising equality but a manifesto that could be holistic so viable.

I can't wait 400 yrs - just not sure how to muster the masses?

TYPING WITH TODDLER SAT ON HEAD

[HereBeBolloX]

The thing about we should jsut concentrate on getting into mainstream political parties and change them from within, is that that's what we've been doing ever since men allowed us to stand for parliament.

And at the current rate of change, in 400 years we will have an equal number of men and women in parliament.

I dunno about you, but I haven't got 400 years to spare. Neither has my daughter, my hopefully future grand daughter, her daughter, her daughter, her daughter... etc.

[garlicnutter]

Great post at 09:13, sunshine.

[carminagoesprimal]

Sunshineandbooks;

I agree with you on cultural and societal norms. I was brought up by a very cold, ( and often violent ) mother - my father, on the other hand, was the complete opposite. He was kind and caring and the one who read to me at night and spent time with me ( even though he worked 6 days a week )
If I had woken up one morning to find he'd divorced her, I'd have cried with happiness - Life would have been a lot happier with just my dad.
But that was never going to happen. A single father in the 70's was almost unheard of.

[claig]

' I would also ban being drunk in court. I think alcoholism is rife in both sides of the courts system and think that it should be mandatory that you are sober in court.'

Then how many judges would we have left?

[sunshineandbooks]

carmina - no one has to do anything whether they're male or female. Despite that, most people tend to behave in line with the cultural norms. That's why they're cultural norms. And as cultural norms vary depending on the culture they're in, it's clear that they are a very powerful influence on human behaviour.

Our culture has very strong messages about family and children. Despite the growth in single-person household and single parents they are still seen as 'different'. Our society is very much moulded around the man/woman/two children model as the building block. There is an assumption that a single person must be lonely and just looking for 'the one'. This is magnified if she is female. It doesn't matter how emancipated you are - it's hard to resist a lifetime of messages about this unless you've put an awful lot of thought into it. There are a lot of women putting up with absolutely miserable relationships simply because it never occurred to them that they didn't have to settle.

Likewise, having children is a biological urge. It's not a true lifestyle choice. Because of human diversity there will naturally be people who choose who not to have children but they are always going to be in the minority as the biological drive to reproduce is the driving force behind any species. It's not a fluke that more than 80% of people across the planet become parents even when contraception is freely available.

Feminism doesn't need to fight against what is natural human behaviour. The challenge lies in working out what is truly natural and what is simulating it through culture. Religion for example seems to be 'natural' in the sense that it is now widely believed in academic circles that the natural human state is to believe in something. However, the form that religion takes is man-made and if it is discriminatory it should be possible to challenge the discrimination without challenging the central tenet of faith - ordination of women for example.

I also think it's a mistake to think that just because there isn't widespread rebellion against something doesn't mean that people are happy with the status quo. For a start you have to recognise there is a problem, and many many women do not because our society sends out very strong messages that all is well and good and we should count ourselves lucky compared to women 100 years ago. (We should, too, but that doesn't mean there isn't an awful lot more to do).

[carminagoesprimal]

Amodmillymum: - women don't have to get married and have children ( ok - some religions pretty much demand it but that's a religious issue )
I could have done anything with my life - I had the same educational opportunities as men - I wanted to get married and have children, just like most women. I'm not a slave to anyone, I have a very equal life wrt most things, and that's the key - I don't think enough women feel too hard done by ( these days anyway ) to start a political party - if they did - someone would have done it already. Plenty of men feel trapped by family life too btw.

Men do rule the world, that's not going to change anytime soon - but religion also has a lot of power over how people live their lives - you'll never smash religion.


And your use of words such as 'war' and 'battle' wouldn't go down well in mainstream politics.

[garlicnutter]

Yes, I suffered a pushme-pullyou dissonance throughout most of my 'career' life - pushing for autonomy in public life, but Cinders to the core in my emotions. Wish I'd spotted it sooner ... like 25 years sooner!!

Since I am a capitalist, I'd focus my political efforts on re-drawing the structures & precepts of business. Any such moves are seen as feminist now but, in fact, are in tune with the general impetus towards quality of life. It can be done; is being done, but you'd need quotas and legal requirements to make the real difference. Fat cats know which side their bread's buttered (and that someone else does the shopping & buttering.)

Since I believe we're currently living through the collapse of capitalism as we've known it since the Industrial Revolution, I think such things might really happen. Though I don't yet know what I think will happen next. Am looking forward to processing toxic materials for a Chinese manufacturer in my old age.

[Amodmillymum]

@garlicnutter

You tell me - what does the manifesto look like that you would vote for - why don't you design it yourself - it's not for me to decree what the women's party manifesto should represent.

It's a long way still until the war is won. But first of all I would genuinely like to thank you for paving the way to push through to the next battle which ultimately leads to the next step and the next step towards true equally represented equality and women not just in power but actually in charge! I don't think that men should be in charge - they have fucked the world up quite frankly - it's our turn!!

FYI - I am not in the military I am married to the military but women are not allowed to fight on the frontline even today that is deemed man's work. Just like women are not allowed to join the Special Forces.

We are so glass half empty - it's interesting that everyone says 'no' and not even 'yes please' - I would love to have my interests genuinely represented and I would love for women to have the balance of power. There is not even an aspiration to be in control of our own lives - to make our own choices and build a world that we want to live in.

I studied The Cinderella Complex at school 20 years ago - and then stupidly got married!! Doh!!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella_complex

@hardgoing
I will go into politics eventually - the world can wait for my children to grow up.

My feeling is this that the majority of men see women as their servants - that men see wives as chattels and that once we have children we give ourselves up to readily to become servants of our children too. This is the cycle that we have to break or address in order to take charge and change the rules of engagement. We live under men's terms and not our terms.

Now hark I know that there are many individual cases where this is not the reality but in the world I inhabit when I look around this is to me what the MAJORITY looks like.