Raising children with Feminism in mind

[ClimberChick]

Not sure if this thread has been done before, but feel free to point me in the right direction.

Have recently started thinking about feminists issues in detail (now that I've found to place to talk and read about it, other than just my own head) and probably more to do with the fact that I have a 6 month DD.

Starting reading to her at bedtime as part of our new routine and it struck me how gender defined the characters are. Even been switching the sexes of the characters, not that DD appreciates my efforts.

This has made me realise that without effort, it will be very easy to reinforce gender expectations etc.

So general tips/areas or behaviours to look out for which we might commonly fall into if not looking (not sure if this makes sense). e.g. when she's older how to avoid all clothes having pink on them/ toys being male or female

[tabouleh]

Just came across a blog called feminist childrearing!

It is run by the CRAP! (Child Rearing Against Patriarchy) Collective .

We are a group of parents, educators and people who care about children, who want a feminist upbringing for the next generation, and is open for all to join. We would like to create networks to support and discuss feminist childrearing issues and push childrearing issues in feminist activist circles.

It looks like it is full of interesting ideas etc.

[omnishambles]

Ooh I was just going to say that ButterflyEffect - its the modelling for boys thats is so important I think - so they see men and woman doing things round the house equally and taking on caring roles equally and expressing emotion equally.

Its very hard as climberchick says though to say the right thing all the time though.

[tadjennyp]

Except that your dd will see that her Dad has given up his career to look after her while you are forging a career in a mainly male field, abroad to boot climber. She will have learnt that gender is no barrier to anything important

[ClimberChick]

Just to echo elephant, I'm aware that girls more than boys get praised for helping out and for crowd pleasing. Starting them on the path to make everyone else happy/sorted except yourself. It's a bit young, I know, but DH this morning said 'good girl' to LO for helping (aka holding or rather eating the shopping list). My response was that she should be told thank you, as saying she is good implies she is bad for not helping.

I think the hardest part of raising her with gender in mind, is co-opting the DH. While he is keen, he just doesn't think about these things (and since he's the the SAHD I feel he needs to be).

There seems to be a minefield of subtleties.

[MoonFaceMama]

Marking my place

[tadjennyp]

See, my two both like to help equally, in fact dd will quite happily boss ds around: fetch this for me Ed, go and pick that up Ed! Trying to stop her being a lazy madam!

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Pinkfizzle - I also wasn't allowed barbies/pink stuff/big dresses etc. Did eventually manage to get a couple of girlier things with much hassling, but then found that they were boring to play with after all. I feel like a right old crone saying this but is it a very new thing that children/parents think that children must have what they want or some kind of damage will ensue?

My parents never said that I couldn't have this or that girly tat because it was Promoting a Bad Image Of Women. TBH they just said "no, because it's crap" or "no, it's too expensive". I understood that big flouncy princess dresses, patent leather shoes, world of barbie etc came under the heading of "crap" and I was never going to get them, and just made the most of playing with them at my friends' houses. I only realised much much later what they were up to (although money was also a real problem), and that all that inheriting clothes from my DB, dressing up as a pirate rather than a shepherdess etc was their way of avoiding over-girlying me. When I was a teenager I practically thanked my mum on my knees for the fact that there were no embarrassing "princessy" pictures to be brought out! :) As an adult I enjoy wearing dresses etc, but I'm really glad I got the opportunity to run around in shorts and t shirts and get muddy and dirty and scratched with brambles without anyone telling me off for being "unladylike" or "ruining" my clothes.

Also, try to avoid showing your surprise if your DC want to do stuff that isn't sterotypically done by their gender. If my parents had let me know when I was a child how surprised they were that I enjoyed helping my dad build walls, or fixing electrical stuff, I probably wouldn't have felt comfortable doing it.

Sorry this is turning into an epic, but can I also mention that little girls seem to be more willing (I'm calling nurture and earlier development) to help out in small ways around the house. If you have a DS as well, do try not to let DD do lots of work and let DS get away without doing any/much. I know a couple of little "come and help mummy" girls, and feel sorry for them TBH while their brothers are just allowed to keep playing.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Do you have to teach him though SWC? My DB is (family strongly suspect although never diagnosed) on the autistic spectrum, and he is totally unsexist but has a tendency to pick up erroneous ideas, that then need to be contradicted by someone he trusts. Somehow he seems to lack the ability to critically assess the value of information he's picked up, so he might hear Jonathan Ross being a twunt about women, and take it as the gospel truth, without using other information he knows from experience etc to contradict what he's heard. Is your DS anything like this? With my DB I think it's mainly a matter of talking him through why it's not important to go along with what other people say, particularly authority figures (celebs, teachers etc). So maybe with your DS you just need to be on hand with the reality check when he comes out with "girls can't" stuff etc?

[CakeandRoses]

SGB - yy re 'other grown ups' that's the thing I'm realising that I have to guard against.

My mother immediately started talking about making my new daughter a doll's house, literally within a week of her being born but I have a doll's houseless son who is nearly 2. When I said Cake'sDS would love it and probably play with it more (given he is capable of actually playing whereas Cake'snewborn is not), she looked embarrassed and muttered that she had been thinking about making him one too - hoping that won't be a garage themed one

On the same visit, she also said had I noticed any differences between boys and girls - like for instance the fact the he bangs things (he was banging the table at the time - actually, the first thing he'd banged in 2 days) and I didn't as a child even tho he's v similar to how I was.

It makes me so sad that society appears to have a need to create all these differences between boys and girls where they don't exist. Obviously there are some differences but not many at 2 yo!

[tadjennyp]

My dd and ds are 19 months apart and ds obviously adores his big sister. As she instigates lots of the games they play together they often both put on sparkly dresses to 'dance in a show', they both like to push their babies around and cuddle them.

It is so easy to send out the wrong messages though. Last year dd said that Mummies stay at home and Daddies go to work. I'm a SAHM because I didn't have a work permit last year and I teach German for which there is not much demand here in the US. I'd also put on a lot of weight and had started going to WW. Sometimes I'd have to take the dcs along to the meetings to get weighed and they both became obsessed with getting weighed too. I really felt like I'd let them down because I was trying to get healthy again but they (at the age of 3 and 2) just thought about the weight.

[ClimberChick]

Just wanted to say that I'm not ignoring everyone, obviously just don't have much to contribute (yet)

Thanks for all the responses, just gotta try and let it sink in

I imagine it's a lot harder to not fall into the gender trap with boys in terms of explaining females can be just as good.

[SolidGoldBrass]

I think the main things are: to tell DC that boys or girls can do whatever they want, and if anyone grown up says they shouldn't because that's only for girls/boys then the grown up is being silly (and it's OK to say so) - and to let (but not force) DC to play with/do what they want whether that's conforming to gender stereotypes or ignoring them. So let DDs play with trucks and meccano give them these things but don't forbid them Barbies and ballerinas and pink if they ask for such things. And give your DSs dolls and bunnies and dresses if they want but don't try to steer them away from trains and footballs either.

[ISNT]

It is sad that a younger child would need to look out for an older one in that way - as a mother I mean. But from their POV what a fantastic relationship, one that they will both gain immeasurably from.

Children, they often don't have the same views about these things that us parents have. They just get on with it

vesela I think I know what you mean, have to have a think...

[vesela]

Oh well - DD (3.5) has never had a go with a Barbie either...

I think it's fine to tell girls they look nice - that, for me, falls into the category of things that it's nice to tell boys, too :) Same with dresses - they're comfortable, there's no point not wearing them just because boys don't. And sparkle is fun.

The problem IMO is that too many little girls don't actually look nice. OK, so they're lovely in themselves, but then they're dressed in really sickly-looking mismatched bubblegum pink and purple and corny T-shirts and sparkle and dots etc. etc. all at once, and it makes them look kind of weak and undignified.

In the 1920s, little girls wore pink and white shift dress a la Milly Molly Mandy, and looked nice. Almost a century later, and they look - weak.

I think what I'm trying to say is that it's not the pink, or the sparkle, or the princesses in themselves. It's the attitude that people seem to have when they go about dressing girls that's the matter.

[ISNT]

@ princess

@ dame edna

My friends son at playgroup once approached his dad with a book for him to read - it was something like "glitter fairies like sparkles and pretty dancing dresses" and was the pinkest sparkliest thing I'd ever seen. His dad was but gamely took it from him and read it "and then the pretty sparkly bunnies flapped their pretty sparkle wings and everyone was pretty and sparkly" and I LMAO.

I mean it's all well and good trying to clamp down on the stereotypes but it's best to keep a sense of humour about all this stuff as well.

Plus I have realised that for little girls, this is the society that we live in, and their peers will judge them mercilessly. So if DD wants to wear a dress and a sparkly hairband, then what the hell. She gets the attention and the compiments and so on and it makes her feel that she is valued and fits in. And of course that is a pretty tragic message to give, when I write it like that. But we have to work with what we've got and I'm not going to risk my DDs self-esteem to make a political point.

Balance is the thing, isn't it. She is an excellent climber and very brave in the playground, she's normally in clothes appropriate for "messing around", she gets good role models at home I hope, fingers crossed it will all be good in the end.

[tabouleh]

DS has rarely seen me in a dress. I dressed up for a formal dinner and when he saw me he was wide eyed and stuttering in amazement:

"Mummeeeeeeee, mummeeee yoo yoo you're a PRINCESS mummy!"

I can safely say that this must have come from stories at nursery!

[ISNT]

Mine DD is girly too, swc, and she certainly doesn't get it from me!

I have noticed a quite few times the difference in the reaction of people to DD when she is in a pretty dress as opposed to trousers and a t-shirt. Whe she's in a dress people will stop and smile and comment and the grandparents compliment her and so on. Say how pretty her hair is, her shoes are, what a pretty dress and so on and so on. So when i remember that, it isn't maybe that much of a surprise that from quite a young age she was aware of "pretty" and that it was a desirable thing to be. And that dresses = pretty as well. Even if people don;t say anything, I'm sure children pick up on approving looks. And why is it dresses that are a big deal? Whenever I put a skirt on she gasps in a really theatrical manner and says "mummy you look boooooootiful".

Having remembered all that I have put myself firmly back in the camp that it's all learned!

[ISNT]

If only, vesela, if only. Her DD has millions of barbies, apparently, and when i said i didn't think DD had "had a go" with one yet I was handed the dire warning.

[vesela]

DD (3) currently says girls do and boys do totally random things. E.g. boys don't eat toast (or do they? I can't remember). So she's seems to be picking up "boys do this, girls do this" messages, but not the standard content.

ISNT, was it just one of those "they grow up so fast" type comments? But yes. I'm kind of amazed at how willing some parents are to shoehorn their children in a way that they themselves weren't.