Governors observing lessons

[Mumsymumphy]

What is union guidance on governor visits?

We had governors come into a lesson last term to get 'a feel' of the school - approx 20 mins, all very informal but we did get written feedback.

This term they are coming into lessons for a full hour.

I've googled 'governor guidance' but it's sketchy.

[Ella1980]

I was once observed by a governor who was a pilot. He scrutinised my teaching and then wrote a detailed report (not very complimentary) to the other governors without me even seeing it or gaining my consent.

I contacted my union who advised that the only people who can make such judgements on teaching must have QTS status.

It's like me sitting in the cockpit watching him fly and then telling him how to land the plane!!!!

[Clutterbugsmum]

Here you go noblegiraffe. You clearly have no idea about how governors work in schools.

Governors are critical friends of the school, there job is to insure that the school is doing the best they can do. They hold the SLT and Head to account on both financially and on the curriculum.

The worse thing you can have is a group of governors who just agree with the head. This is why you have teacher governors, parent governors and community governors.

[TheFallenMadonna]

"Ofsted does not expect those governing to observe teachers and make direct judgements on their teaching – this is an operational activity and not part of governance".

From that link.

[flapjackfairy]

I am a parent governor and we do a learning walk every term.
We make notes on what we found positive about the classroom and teaching environment and any glaring issues etc.
Governors are increasingly being called to account for what goes on in school so we need to get a good grasp of how the school works in reality.
I do not approach it in a way that a fellow teacher or inspector would because I am not one. I look at it from a parents perspective and slant my observations that way. I cannot tell a teacher whether or not they are doing it right because I am not qualified to do so but sometimes we can see something as a parent that is useful to the schools running.

[noblegiraffe]

Exactly, Fallen

If the school organises learning walks/observations by SLT and middle leaders and reports come from this, then reading those reports is not simply accepting the opinion of the head, and should be acceptable.

[TheFallenMadonna]

"we are aware anecdotally that a small minority of inspectors have unrealistic or incorrect expectations of what governors and trustees should be doing. Unfortunately this is evident in some of the governance paragraphs in reports. Many of these comments were related to governors and trustees crossing the line between the strategic and operational – for example praising governors and trustees for scrutinising pupils’ work and teachers’ marking, observing teaching and making judgements on it, and helping out in the classroom"

Also from that link. Thank you for posting it!

[GoldenHour]

I'm a governor and being pressured by the headteacher and rest of the FGB to do class visits but I feel really uncomfortable about it. I know I'm not there to scrutinise, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do? How can I comment on the quality of teaching, I haven't a clue, and I don't think the teachers would appreciate me being there either!

[GoldenHour]

And I should add the pressure is ultimately coming from ofsted, apparently we need to look engaged with the school with regular visits etc.

[noblegiraffe]

How can I comment on the quality of teaching

You can’t. But you can read reports from people who are qualified to comment on the quality of teaching.

[TheFallenMadonna]

My link governor used to come in to talk to me, when I was HoD, about what we were doing. That was quite informal and we just made notes of what we discussed. And we also presented once a year to the GB as a department. A bit more formal and properly minuted of course.

[noblegiraffe]

If people are coming under pressure from Ofsted inspectors to do stuff that is beyond their remit, please contact Sean Harford of Ofsted, he regularly asks on twitter (@HarfordSean) to be told about this sort of stuff. It’s his job to stop it.

[GoldenHour]

@noblegiraffe how do you mean? Which reports? (I'm a very new governor!)

[TheFallenMadonna]

SLT and HoDs will do learning walks and lesson observations and record them.

[Weetabixandshreddies]

TheFallenMadonna

I agree that we shouldn't be observing or making judgements on teachers or teaching. I don't think any of us have said that.

Doing learning walks or visiting classrooms isn't making judgements on the quality of teaching. It's about knowing your school, observing student behaviour as you walk around the school, looking at what is working and what isn't, getting views of staff and students.

How do you answer questions from Ofsted about how do we know that what the head tells us is true? Is an acceptable answer "because SLT said it was"?

The only external data we now have at secondary school are GCSEs so how else can you validate?

I always checked with staff that it was ok to visit, and when I did link reports I would always send it to the staff member first making it very clear that I would make changes if they wanted me to.

It's very hard if you don't work in the environment to be able to "sense check" without having ways to validate what you are being told.

[TheFallenMadonna]

I'm just quoting the National Governance Association.

[noblegiraffe]

looking at what is working and what isn't

How the blue blanking blazes do you think you are qualified to make that sort of assessment?

It’s the job of qualified teachers to do learning walks and observations and to look at what’s working and what isn’t. It’s your job to accept their assessments. And no, that doesn’t mean you are simply accepting what the head is telling you, because it’s not the just head that’s telling you it. It’s professional teachers, and the default shouldn’t be not to trust them.

[TheFallenMadonna]

I absolutely think governors should be in schools. I think they should talk to school staff. I think you not call them learning walks, as these are used in some schools to make judgements on teaching.

I had no problem at all discussing things with my link governor. I was happy to do so.

You might ask whether staff are happy for you to visit their lesson, but they won't really feel they can say no. I think if you are visiting lessons, you should give general feedback and not identify individual staff.

[ArmchairTraveller]

The point being that you may have a governor who doesn’t know the difference between their and there, or insure and ensure. Or dissolving and melting. Or acrylic and readymix. Or any one of hundreds of teaching points.
Yet they are giving judgements on your teaching in those areas.

[Weetabixandshreddies]

If people are coming under pressure from Ofsted inspectors to do stuff that is beyond their remit, please contact Sean Harford of Ofsted, he regularly asks on twitter (@HarfordSean) to be told about this sort of stuff. It’s his job to stop it

I can't comment any further because it would be too outing, but it really, really doesn't work like that.

To start with how do you even prove what they did? There are no independent minutes. Ofsted literally only believe the notes made by their inspectors. We complained as far as we could - nothing happened. Try getting an inspection overturned. Even when the report is sent vi to publication it is only to check for factual inaccuracies, you can't challenge the content.

Governors are also very wary about rocking the boat too much during an inspection because of the amount of power that the inspectors have. Would you as a teacher challenge an inspector during an inspection?

[Weetabixandshreddies]

How the blue blanking blazes do you think you are qualified to make that sort of assessment?

So we introduced a one way system around the school - you think governors can't observe whether that is working? Only a qualified teacher can do that?

Mobile phone ban, changes to the school day - there are other things happening in schools that governors are also responsible for.

It works both ways too. Teachers sometimes flagged up issues that we weren't aware of and that we could then address with the head.

It’s professional teachers, and the default shouldn’t be not to trust them.

Governors don't receive reports or data from teachers though. It is reported via the head.

[Weetabixandshreddies]

. I think if you are visiting lessons, you should give general feedback and not identify individual staff.

Exactly what happened, always. In the vast majority of cases the teachers would invite us to go in because there was something that they wanted to show us or progress that they wanted to share.

No comments or judgements were made on teaching at all. Ofsted expect governors to know their school.

I think people have a problem with the concept of governance which is fair enough, but isn't actually the fault of governors.

[noblegiraffe]

but it really, really doesn't work like that.

I don’t mean that he would necessarily deal with individual complaints, but he could make sure it is doubly clear to inspectors not to do that, and to publicise that it’s unacceptable (e.g. like with the Ofsted Myths document) so that teachers can go back to their schools and say no.

[noblegiraffe]

Looking at whether a one-way system is working is entirely different to observing a lesson and providing feedback as the OP describes.

If governors don’t have access to reports about the feedback from learning walks conducted by qualified teachers, then the obvious solution is to ask for access to those reports, not to bumble into school and try to do it themselves.

[Weetabixandshreddies]

noblegiraffe

Well, I should think that they do already know and are told not to do it. Especially given that the HMI repeatedly said " I shouldn't say this or ask this" but how do you prove it?

That's only one part though. They will ask " how do you know this" and you have to be able to answer other than " because the head told us".

[TheFallenMadonna]

It might be what happened in your school, but the OP got written feedback specific to her lesson, so it is not what happens in all schools.