Bitten in unprovoked attack

[Letmegetthisrightasawoman]

I was walking down the road with my toddler in a pushchair and got bitten in an entirely unprovoked attack, by a collie type dog coming towards me. It's caused bruising but the skin isn't broken (it bit me through my trousers). I got the owner's details and have reported it to the police. What is likely to happen to the dog/ owners?

[Scattyhattie]

Ouch! Not breaking skin you shouldn't need treatment at least.

Its not aggression per se the desire to chase cars /bikes/ other moving objects is a common problem with collies born out of their herding instinct. I suspect you were on the receiving end of its redirected frustration. I've had it where the dog wants to chase a squirrel and tries to grab the lead to go or nip nearest thing instead once well over arousal threshold.

However its the owner's fault for not putting the muzzle on that day that you were bitten.

[Letmegetthisrightasawoman]

Interesting, I didn't know that about redirected energy. The skin was slightly grazed so they're probably being overly cautious, but I'm fine with that. I think the police are treating it as a crime now...

[LochJessMonster]

To answer your question about what will happens to the dog.

If it’s a first known offence then they will likely either be given a Community Protection Notice saying the dog has to be muzzled, a Community Remedy suggesting the dog is muzzled, or potentially could be charged with having a dog dangerously out of control, prosecuted, fined and end up with a Conditional Destruction Order on the dog saying the dog had to be muzzled and anything further will result in the dog being seized and destroyed.

It all really depends on severity of bite, how the owners react in interview, and the individual police force. Some police forces take a harder approach to dog bites than others.

I imagine the dog, being a collie type, was lunging at the car, and high on adrenaline redirected onto you.

I don’t think the dog will be destroyed at this time.

[mencken]

it is a crime and you need to report. As above, fuck all will probably be done for the first offence but as it will happen again, having it recorded will mean that eventually the dangerous animal will be destroyed. And the dangerous owner will get what they deserve. From her reaction she's not going to do anything unless forced, and of course if she was a decent dog owner it would never have got to this.

quarter of a million dog bites per year, said the nurse. People knocked off bikes and injured, children bitten (and sometimes killed), old people knocked over and ending up with fractures, road collisions - out of control dogs can be lethal.

the dog control officer we met said that they used to love dogs. But no longer.

[Letmegetthisrightasawoman]

TBF, I think the woman was completely out of her depth with that dog. That obviously doesn't make it OK, but she didn't strike me as the type that would make excuses. She should never have been out with a dog that she doesn't know, to the extent that it can bite someone without her properly realising, whilst it's on a lead. I found it very odd that it was apparently not her dog, but her husband's, how does that work? She struck me as very inexperienced with dogs and possibly a bit naïve, I didn't hear her say anything to the dog in terms of commands. The whole thing was just odd. I have reported it and will be receiving a phone call from an officer on Wednesday.
My leg is sore (lucky it only got my fat, not my muscle) and my arm is stiff from the sodding tetanus jab

[Shambolical1]

Sounds like the woman knew nothing about the dog. Maybe she is separated from her husband? These are strange times. Perhaps he is ill, or isolating, and she had no choice but to walk it? Maybe she didn't know how to put a muzzle on it?

It does seem like redirection - which is not the same as an 'unprovoked attack', it's more like being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's not right but it's not intentional. With a competent handler I doubt it would have happened. As this handler obviously wasn't competent, it did happen: the dog lunged at the car, was frustrated by the lead, it redirected and the OP took the hit. That being so even if the dog had been muzzled there would have been a bruise and/or a graze from the impact.

I suspect the dog will need to be seen by a behaviourist or other police appointed 'expert' and any action will be decided from then on.

Lots of judge-jury-executioner posts on this thread. Don't condemn every muzzle-wearing dog as 'vicious' or having a bite history as dogs wear muzzles for reasons other than ferocity. Likewise, the dog PTS because a toddler 'tried to hug it'. Most dogs are really uncomfortable with being hugged and most toddler bites are on the face because that's where the toddler's face is - right by the dog's mouth. And most of those bites happen because the supposedly responsible adults nearby (mostly making 'cute' videos of the toddler 'loving' the dog) protect neither their child or their dog from each other.

[Letmegetthisrightasawoman]

@Shambolical1 I'm sure it can all be explained. That doesn't make what happened OK in any way, shape or form. I don't care why she was out with a dog she can't control. Fact is she was, and should not have been. If there is indeed a reason why her husband couldn't walk it, she should have made sure she knew the dog's temperament and how to handle it.

I can just about get my head around it not being an unprovoked attack in the sense that the dog had a reason (frustration), though I'm struggling. Surely that only counts as an excuse for aggression if the dog is actually in pain or similar? Not merely because it has had its freedom curtailed by being on a lead? As in: no dog should be so frustrated by the consequences of being on a lead that it then bites passersby?

It all just sounds like you're making excuses for what the dog did. Fact is, it attacked me when I had done nothing to provoke it. Sounds remarkably like an unprovoked attack in my book. IDGAF if its behaviour can be explained, it's biting passersby. Not a nice dog. If a dog can't reliably be walked in public without attacking people it's not safe and shouldn't be kept as a pet. Simple really.

[Letmegetthisrightasawoman]

When I see a muzzled dog, my first thought is usually "what a responsible owner" or "wow, that dog doesn't look aggressive, I wonder why it's muzzled", not that it's vicious

BTW, it doesn't matter that a muzzle wouldn't have completely prevented any injuries. However, I wouldn't have had to get a tetanus jab and antibiotics and I doubt I'd still be in pain.

[Shambolical1]

I'm not excusing anything or anybody. I don't KNOW why she couldn't handle the dog or why she was walking it to start with, why she didn't put a muzzle on it or why it lunged at the car then redirected on you but neither do you or any of the other posters here.

It was an unfortunate incident in which both you and the dog were let down by an incompetent handler. There was a redirection bite resulting in a 'slight graze'.

I can't be bothered to explain the animal behavioural implications of 'stress'and 'frustration' but they do not equate to the same things you understand from your post above; they are primal and atavistic and happen in a fraction of the reaction times of which people are capable.

Granted it should never have happened but it is what it is.

[GimmeAy]

Shambolic

It's irrelevant. You can call it redirection, you can call it fluffy fairies.

The dog bit the OP. It should have been muzzled and should have been controlled on the lead.

[Notfeelinggreattoday]

Lunging at cars some collies do its to do with herding instinct i believe more of a trying to chase the car
Our collie did it as a puppy and we had to work hard to stop him as it can be dangerous if
ever of a lead etc
Does seem strange that normally muszzled implying maybe has some history but if thats the case you would be very careful on making sure it is muzzled
Not sure if forced to pts for this if has no prior history and they agree to measures , was it off lead ?

[PurpleThistles84]

My rescue boy was 10 years old when I adopted him. He barked like crazy at other dogs and was a real arse. Fine with people though. I always had him on a tight lead and was forever apologising to other dog walkers and telling them he was just a horrible dog! So sometimes dog walkers can be honest OP! He died aged thirteen this year and remained an arse right to the end, I loved him to bits.

Actually quite often other dog walkers would say, oh he is just being protective of you, he wants to play with my dog really. No love, he wants a round of pawsticuffs with your dog, hence the tight lead and control! Anyways, I digress.

I’m sorry this happened to you, what a hell of a fright you must have got. You did the right thing and I’m glad you didn’t get more seriously hurt. I’m also glad you say to your baby, look at the woof woof, I say this to my baby too.

[Letmegetthisrightasawoman]

@Shambolical1 bit unfair to tell me I don't understand, but refusing to explain, don't you think? WRT the slight graze, this was referring to the fact that it didn't properly puncture my skin. There is significant bruising, it definitely bit me rather than its teeth merely grazing me. You can see the teeth marks, FFS

[Letmegetthisrightasawoman]

Discovered last night that it did rip my trousers as well...

[Shambolical1]

I did say it shouldn't have happened. I'm not making excuses.

There's no point in me trying to explain the dog's behaviour - I and others have given a hypothesis - because you are attaching human reasoning and understanding to a different species.

It doesn't work like that.

'Unprovoked attacks' are incredibly, incredibly rare.

You got a minor, accidental bite from a disturbed dog being inadequately handled.

No, this shouldn't have happened and it was totally not your fault. You were, as I mentioned before, in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I hope you get the closure you are looking for.

[Astrabees]

Collies have a bit of a reputation for nipping people from behind, which is to do with their herding instincts where they follow behind the cows and can give a nip to hurry them along. We had a collie when I was a child that used to creep up behind my father and bite him on the bottom, I've still got some little white marks on my right hand from where he snapped at me. Fortunately he only bit his own family so was safe from being put down.

[Letmegetthisrightasawoman]

@Shambolical1 I interpreted what was said to the best of my ability. That might come across as attributing human emotions to a dog, but I was genuinely trying to understand. I just don't know that much about dogs. It's a bit frustrating that you're essentially saying "You don't understand, and it's pointless for me to try to explain, because you don't, and wont, understand". I'm not being obstinate, I thought I understood what you meant, but clearly not.

[LST]

I have a collie. They are normally very highly strung and need a lot on handling to create a well rounded family pet. It sounds like this one hasn't had that. I agree it sounds like he was frustrated with the environment he was in and not under control. Oddly enough some collies, mine included are more easy to control off a lead than on one.

[mencken]

two options for dog owners - train it or shoot it. That's it. You choose to own a dog, you train it and keep it on a lead at all times unless in a dedicated off lead exercise area, your house or your secure garden.
None of these mean 'a road without much traffic' as all too many round my way seem to think.

it's not a 'fur baby' it is an animal with instincts and you need to control it. Decent dog owners will understand. Shit dog owners will blubber or produce fuckwitted comparisons to children. Realise that the rest of us do not want to be bitten, threatened, jumped or or slobbered over and make sure none of these things happen.

control it, clean up after it or don't have a dog.

[JacobReesMogadishu]

I used to live on a farm where there was a collie which was forever sneaking up behind people and nipping them. Never broke the skin but made people jump/scared, caused bruises. Wasn’t my dog before anyone starts. The owner didn’t take it very seriously and said it was herding instinct and it was playing. I would agree that I don’t think the dog was vicious or aggressive, just a bit of a twat.

At least it sounds like the police are taking it seriously. I was chased by a dog while cycling a few months ago and ended up jumping off the bike and using the hike to fend the dog (Doberman) off. The owner said he wasn’t vicious even though he was snarling and lunging at me and downplayed it and that the dog liked chasing bikes! Wtf! I emailed the police and they never got back to me.

[frostedviolets]

As a collie owner I have to correct some of your viewpoints:

The whole lunging at/attacking a car thing.
That’s a collie trait and no way suggests a vicious animal at all.
They are motivated by movement and often try to control/herd any fast moving things, like cars, bikes, even people etc.
It’s what they have been bred to do for generations.
A responsible owner would have trained the dog not to herd inappropriate items or had it leashed if unable to.

The ‘attack from behind’ is relevant.
Herding breeds often chase and nip/grip from behind.

The ‘slowed down’ argument is bizarre!
The bite could have happened for multiple reasons; fearful, redirected through frustration etc but if it was because of inappropriate herding, which is very common in collies, that is, the dog isn’t intending to harm you but is trying to ‘herd’ you/control your movement, slowing down would be the correct thing to do because when the item to be herded stops moving they often stop trying to herd it.

Collies are up there for biting, and I am a collie owner myself.
It’s often due to inappropriate herding behaviour or nervousness which is a known issue in the breed as they tend to be high strung.

If it is usually muzzled I wonder if it’s perhaps done similar before.

[frostedviolets]

can just about get my head around it not being an unprovoked attack in the sense that the dog had a reason (frustration), though I'm struggling. Surely that only counts as an excuse for aggression if the dog is actually in pain or similar?

No, not at all.
Redirected aggression is common in most animals, including people!

To give you an example of ‘redirected aggression’, my mum received a nasty injury from our cat once.
There was another cat threatening him through the cat flap (imposter cat couldn’t get through it) and he was very distressed at seeing this cat outside staring and growling at him.

My mum tried to comfort him but he was so agitated and amped up at the other cat that the second he felt my mum touch him he viciously attacked her; both his claws and teeth went through her trousers and punctured her leg.

The cat had never shown any aggression before and never acted aggressively again after.

He never intended to hurt my mum, it was an ‘unprovoked attack’.

[Letmegetthisrightasawoman]

@frostedviolets I suppose I just find it hard to understand that a dog's reaction to being prevented from jumping at a car is the same as that of a cat that feels threatened. But then I'm not a dog

The lunging at a car being herding behaviour is something I've learnt on this thread. TBH, when I saw it happen I just assumed the dog was young and boisterous and wanted to steer clear in case it jumped up and landed on top of my kid It was only after it bit me that I thought it might have been aggressive.

I've learnt a lot from this thread, thanks for all the contributions! I have to say it does make me question the wisdom of keeping collies as pets, rather than as working animals. If their behaviour is the result of breeding rather than training it must be very difficult to stop them from displaying certain "problematic" behaviours. Thinking about it, the only other time I've ever been bitten by a dog was by a mongrel with strong collie traits. I knew the dog and never liked it, but it only bit me because I stretched my legs under the table and accidentally kicked it. Put a dent in the nose of my Doc Marten's boots though, so it meant business

[LST]

OP collies are THE best dogs to get as pets if you're willing to work with them for the first 6 months you have them as a pup and they get enough mental and physical stimulation.

Ours is an absolutely brilliant dog. He is 8 now and apart from the odd shadow chasing he is just perfect.

[frostedviolets]

I have to say it does make me question the wisdom of keeping collies as pets, rather than as working animals. If their behaviour is the result of breeding rather than training it must be very difficult to stop them from displaying certain "problematic" behaviours
I can relate to this view but then, you do get collies of working breeding that fail at being sheepdogs, sometimes they don’t have a strong enough instinct to herd or sometimes they are too predatory and hurt the sheep and all sorts of other reasons.

Those dogs can be re homed as pets but they may still exhibit ‘working’ traits even though they are unsuitable for work

Personally, I think working dogs should always be bred for working because I think otherwise you can start losing personality traits unique to that breed.

I think that in a home where the owner understands the instinct and can train with it they can make lovely pets.

Certainly mine is a lovely pet, very sweet and gentle, she’s calmer than a lot of other dogs I know and very obedient.