6 month old biting, lunging, attacking on walks

[BreathlessCommotion]

We thought things had improved from the puppy biting phase. We worked with a trainer, who was excellent and we made some real progress.

But in the last few weeks she has got so much worse. Whenever we take her for a walk, both on and off lead, she will suddenly turn and jump, bite, pull and lunge at us biting. If we fold arms and turn our backs she bites bums and legs! Now she has adult teeth it is really painful. I am covered in bruises and she has drawn blood a few times.

She looks like a police dog hanging off our arms. The distraction and calming techniques-throwing treats on floor for her to sniff and find, isn't working.

Today I had to call DH to come and fetch us as I couldn't get anywhere, she was constantly jumping, biting, lunging.

We play games with her, do enrichment, but it doesn't seem to help.

Any suggestions?

[BreathlessCommotion]

DH thinks (and I agree) that I might have been a bit emotional yesterday and actually I can get her mouth off, it's just hard because I'm also holding the lead and she will jump again somewhere else.

Have contemplated it a lot today (and last night, I couldn't sleep) I do think it's excitement/overstimulation. It rarely happens at the start of a walk, but is much more common at the end and when she has been frustrated by not being able to meet people or dogs, or go the direction she wants to go. So still not brilliant.

She has slept a lot today, and as I said we've made it a lot more chilled and calm, shorter walks and only two, a bit of mat training.

The vet said that what she was doing was mouthing but with adult teeth because she was stressed by someone looking in her ear (which probably hurts). Vet knows her well and doesn't think she's a 'bad egg'. She thinks she's very clever and keen and excitable. I know vets aren't behaviourists, however this one runs training classes and trains her own to competition level.

[BreathlessCommotion]

And I do tell her off, and yesterday I cried (because it hurt and I was so fed up) and she stopped and sat next to me and tried to give me her paw.

[DuvetDay1212]

Oh god I have a 1 year old miniature poodle just like this. I've tried everything I can think of. I'll be back tomorrow to do a proper post, knackered right now.

[TeensArghhhh]

Hi OP. You sound fed up to the back teeth. Puppies are hard work aren't they. I have a 2 year old poodle cross. She was the nippiest, mouthy, jumpy, demanding pup I have ever had (and I've had a fair few puppies) until her adult teeth came in at around 6 months. She did all the unwanted behaviours you describe.

You seem to be starting to train her. Well Done! Your dogs behaviour when you are out sounds rather concerning. If I were you I would keep the treats to reward good behaviour and not for distraction.

Does your pup chase a ball? I would use a ball for distraction (something for her to focus on, whilst moving away from you, rather than jumping to bite your body for attention). My pup, at that age did the jumpy, nipping thing because she wanted to play. Rather than allowing her to tug on my clothes and nip my hands I introduced a ball. She got the hang of retrieving very quickly, and she was happy because I was interacting with her as we played. Don't let it become a habit that she thinks walks means ball play. Vary your walks to include lead training, recall, sniffing etc as well as, sometimes, short bursts of ball play.

Also try this when she's on lead. You'll have to start off indoors first, if you haven't already begun it. She will pick it up very quickly. Indoors tell her to sit. When she sits, treat. Then tell her watch (as you point to your face) as soon as her eyes look at you treat. It will only be for a split second when you first start. Repeat this a few times and treat each time she looks at you. Build this up, a couple of mins a few times a day, so she keeps focused on you for longer lengths of time. Once she has the gist of what 'watch' means you can then distract her from unwanted behaviour on lead. As you walk point to your face and say watch as you're walking. When she is focused on your face, treat every few steps. This should take her mind off looking to you for play as she is being kept busy and earning treats. This is also a great way for her to learn to walk on a loose lead.

Give it a try for a few days and let us know how it goes. This works best using a clicker, initially. Have you tried clicker training?

Also the 5 minutes for each month is for walking on hard surfaces. Don't prevent her from having a run around on grass or beach or walking through woods. Just don't overdo it at this age.

Good Luck! 🍀

[DuvetDay1212]

So as I mentioned above, my one year old miniature poodle is very similar to your pup. I posted my issue on a breed specific forum but got a bit of a roasting with people telling me I should have got on top of this from the start. Which is frustrating because I have been training from day one!! The biting has decreased slightly in that I can often walk to the kitchen without having my trousers pulled at now. But the behaviour is still very difficult.

From the beginning, she would bite us. We tried the yelping which just riled her up more, standing still with back to her which just had her attacking my legs to the point it was seriously painful, leaving the room which didn't make a difference. We upped her training but even when I'm training her, she gets over excited about it and tries to bite me. This is during trick training.

We can't go in the garden with her without her basically attacking us. Our 6 year old son can't play with her as she starts getting worked up and bites him. I'm very uncomfortable with how many times she's bitten him, it doesn't sit right with me.

It doesn't seem like it's actual aggression, it's like she's gotten extremely excited and lost her marbles.

She gets an hour of walking a day, on the flexi lead. Breeder was horrified when I told her this (got in touch with breeder for advice). She said that's not enough. That she needs off lead exercise and that may be why she is biting. The thing is, how can I exercise her off the lead when she bites and chases people? Breeder told me that it's my anxiety that is the problem!! Which pissed me off tbh. She said I'm imagining the worst case scenario. It's not bloody anxiety, it's intuition. I can see how she acts when people come into our garden, I'm not running the risk of her biting someone, it could be a child! Recall when she's in the garden and not distracted is usually OK but if she's distracted or there is a person or a dog, she's gone. I could be holding a roast chicken and she wouldn't come back. People and other dogs are a lot more interesting than me, despite me trying to make myself interesting.

The other thing the breeder wasn't happy with is that she doesn't get off lead time with other dogs. All I have is my parents elderly terrier who finds her too much. Breeder has told me to go make friends with people in my area and see them frequently and have them over to my house. Honestly, this just isn't something I'm able to do. All I can think of is a dog walker or dog daycare. I'm at home all day so this doesn't make sense but would give her time with dogs. I'm just not sure if they would take her as she's not exactly well behaved.

I thought about starting my own thread but thought I'd get flamed. I'm trying clicker training, so far no difference. We resorted to using bitter apple spray on our clothes and hands as this is the only way to stop her hurting us. Not ideal, I'm aware it's an adversive method but it's the only way to stop her biting my son. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't thought about returning her. She does have good points, she's lovely and snuggly when tired, house trained, can be left alone without issue, doesn't chew furniture, lies in til 10am if we let her. She loves kongs and puzzle toys.

I'm a bit of a loss. Just wanted to give some solidarity as it seems we are in the same boat. Not meaning to hijack thread.

[adaline]

@duvetday1212

Can you hire an enclosed field for her to run in? If not, we used to use our local tennis courts in the park - just go in and lock the gate and let the dog run.

Your breeder is right that the lack of exercise (an hour a day for a working dog is nowhere near enough) will be exacerbating the poor behaviour.

[TeensArghhhh]

Duvet it sounds like you need to go right back to basics. I’m not a dog trainer in any sense. I ended up with a Cockapoo by accident really. My cocker died at the age of 3 years (cancer) and I decided I couldn’t go thru the heartbreak of owning a dog and losing it again. I began to help out walking the dogs at my local dog rescue centre. Anyway this very cute Cockapoo was given up by her owners at the age of 11 weeks. The 5 year old didn’t like her because she kept ‘biting’ her.

The pup was, obviously, desperate for attention - as all pups are. Her nipping and mouthing was way over the top and very intense. I spent a lot of time with her and by the time she was 14 weeks it was clear there was no aggression, she simply demanded attention. I introduced her to my family and she stayed with us from that day. The nipping at hands and clothes was a nightmare but this disappeared from around the time her adult teeth were through. By 9 months she was a wonderful, funny, obedient little dog who had brilliant recall and could perform a variety of tricks. At the age of 2 I can take her anywhere. This didn’t come by itself. I spent hours and hours instilling in her the behaviour I wanted and ditching the silly, puppy behaviour, altering strategies to find something that worked.

I don’t want to appear mean but in my opinion your dog sounds under stimulated. Please don’t think I’m having a dig. Poodles are very intelligent and they need to keep their brains working. They are also working dogs and so need to channel their energy.

You say you have been training from the start. What have you been doing? Whatever it is it’s not working so you need to find different strategies that suit you and your dog. As I said I’m not a trainer but I will help if I can.

I have recently joined a poodle/doodle dog walking group. Most of the dogs are fine. There are a couple who are totally off the wall. There again their owners haven’t taken the time to train the basics.

You say you can’t let your dog off lead. Has she ever been off lead? Has she ever played, or run around, with other other dogs?

What about clicker training? What are you using the clicker for? Sorry for the questions. I want to help but need to know what you’ve done so far.

[RoombaSavedMySanity]

@duvetday1212

I think it's a rare adolescent dog indeed that doesn't get over excited when playing with a 6 year old child. I would personally stop them playing for the time being because at that age (the dog's age) it is so easy for them to go over the top.

Whilst your breeder doesn't sound like she expressed herself very clearly, your dog will know when you are nervous. Apart from all the telltale behavioural signs, you will smell of adrenaline. There is no lying to dogs :) So, try and think of scenarios you can walk her where you KNOW you are both safe and so you can relax. @adaline has a good example but you could also try training classes. For example, agility might be a good activity for you both. It is often set up so only one dog at a time is in the 'ring' so your dog can go offlead and have a good run but you know she cannot hurt anyone. In between your turns, you wait with her on lead which gives you a chance to practice staying calm around other dogs. No one will take offence at you waiting several metres away from everyone else - at a distance your dog can stay calm at. Look for a class that caters to young dogs (no big jumps etc) so you know it won't be too taxing on joints etc.

Scentwork is often similar, but a little bit less active.

They are fun to do but you sneak obendience training in without you are your dog realising it. Plus you have trainers on hand who can help you. Plus your son might be able to help with some it so get his 'doggy' fix that way.

Look at using a long trailing lead for "off lead" walks. The idea is that the dog has a very light, 10m lead attached to them that you drop and it trails on the floor. Thus, the dog feels like it is off lead but it is easy to stomp on the end of the lead to regain control if you spot another dog. It allows you to practise coming back to you. Again, at that age it's not usual for dogs to find other dogs more exciting than you. It's just something you have to work on consitently. If you've regained an ok recall by the time he's 2 years old then you're doing ok :)

Apart from all that, think about ways to keep a calm atmosphere around the dog. I know that sounds easier said than done but calm voices, calming music, training in a way that encourages calm all help. You won't see it get better straight away but if you are consistent with it, it WILL be better when your pup is grown up (sometime beteen 2-3 years).

Clicker training is good, but only if you are clear on how it works. Plus, I think there are calmer ways to do the same thing and for dogs that get easily over excited I personally prefer a calm "good" to the sound of a click as a marker. I think the click itself can sometimes encourage excitement - in some dogs.

Hope some of that is useful.

[BreathlessCommotion]

If it helps mine behaves a lot better for others than for us. Just like my children.

[MsAdorabelleDearheartVonLipwig]

Well they do pick up on your mood and if you’re anxious they will be too. It’s a vicious circle, I know.

[PuppyMonkey]

Sounds just like my golden retriever at that age, OP. It really was a nightmare, very nearly broke me.

I think the main thing that happened was he grew a bit older. But one thing that really helped with our boy was a Halti head collar. Takes a bit of getting used to, but it soon stopped him attacking and jumping up on me. And pulling me off my feet ski jump style.

I’m waiting for someone to come in the thread and tell me I’m wrong for using one, but honestly, it changed our lives and made me enjoy my dog rather than give him up. Which is where we were at, frankly.

[percheron67]

I think you need to chat to a good trainer who has many years experience. It is quite unacceptable that the dog tries to bite you. If you want to pm me, I will see if you are in my part of the world and can put you in touch. The person I have in mind, has been mentioned in an autobiography written by a very famous chef who was delighted at her dog's behaviour after being seen by the trainer.

[DuvetDay1212]

@adaline @RoombaSavedMySanity @TeensArghhhh

Thanks for the advice all (sorry for derailing the thread!)
I do have a feeling we have gone with the wrong breed. I'm used to chilled out terriers from childhood. We went with mini poodle as my husband is allergic to most other dogs. I read that they were high energy but I enjoy a hike so thought hiking would be good enough. I guess if she was off lead it would be.

I've been trying strategies I've read about to deal with biting from when we got her. Yelping, standing still, time out, redirection with a toy. We had a trainer in the early days to help us but she did remark how bitey she was even for a puppy.

I do trick training so she knows sit, lie down, paw, high five, stand (hind legs), jump and she can fetch and retrieve in the house. She sits to get her lead clipped on and sits before getting her food. She sometimes sits automatically when she knows it's expected, other times I raise my hand as a signal and she sits. She's smart, that's for sure. Sometimes I scatter food in the grass so she can sniff it out, or I use her snuffle mat. She gets puzzle toys/kongs/yakker chews everyday. We try to play fetch in the garden (I should add we have a large, long garden) but she doesn't bring the ball back. She will only fetch and retrieve from short distances, inside.

She pulls a lot on the lead if we see a person, dog, rabbit or cat. She chases leaves. When I walk her I keep her on a short lead and use a treat to reward her when she walks nicely and looks at me. This is what I use the clicker for. If she walks nicely I click and treat.

I have never let her off the lead because we don't have any secure dog parks where I live. Everywhere can lead to a main road including the beach and forest walk - no proper gates. There are also sheep in the fields, which she has shown interest in and has pushed at the fences to try to get in the fields. But the main reason I don't let her off (but I do let her have max length on the flexi lead) is because she will bite someone or harass their dogs. I have predicted this by how she reacts to people and dogs in our garden and on walks.

She hasn't ran around with any dogs apart from a few times with my parents elderly terrier, who isn't keen on her and has a bad back. We meet dogs on our walks and she has a sniff to say hello but then tries to get up on her back legs to play with them, they don't want to play. People have started giving us a wide berth as they can see she is very over excited.

Myself and my son are highly sensitive. I do my best to stay calm but honestly I'm now quite overwhelmed because I already find a lot of headspace is taken up by our dog and trying to figure out what she needs and also my son, who isn't straightforward either. I don't work (well, I babysit my niece a few days a week but that's all) so there's not much excuse for feeling stressed with what I have. I'm possibly just weak in character or something.

I'm going to get in touch with a local behaviourist to see if she can help. I've ordered a long line.

[VisionQuest]

First and foremost I think both these dogs need a good blast off the lead, with minimal interaction from the owners. The only way to do this is to hire a secure field. This website will direct you to your nearest one - dogwalkingfields.com

Then you can determine whether they are exhibiting this behaviour because they are frustrated about being permanently on a lead. My guess is that if they were off lead in a safe environment that their behaviour would be redirected away from you.

What also stood out to me is the fact that people worry so much about a bit of cider vinegar or a halti being an aversive training method! Don't be so hard on yourselves! I'm not advocating the use of shock collars or anything but honestly if these were my dogs, they would have had a complete bollocking by now.

OP it's interesting that you say your dogs is better behaved for others. In my experience, dogs tend to know if they're in the company of someone who is more authoritative.

Take one of my own dogs for example. When she is with my husband, she will bark and lunge at other dogs. When she's with me, she won't even glance in their direction, she doesn't even need to be on the lead.

I feel that when she is with my husband, she feels unsafe so tries to defend herself (and him). With me, she is totally relaxed and calm, she knows that I will protect us both, so she doesn't have to display any of that behaviour.

I'm not saying that off lead walking is the holy grail and that the behaviour would definitely cease completely. But it would be a good start. If it were my dog and they'd had a good blast off the lead and were STILL lunging and biting at me, then yes, I would give them a taste of their own medicine.

I have helped a friend with a similar problem. Her dog would run and leap at people to head height on walks. I arranged to position myself out in the field and sure enough, the dog clocked me, ran straight to me and leapt up (all 4 feet off the ground) to my face. Let's just say, the dog ended up on the floor and she never tried it again. It was a quick, firm and some might say, harsh, lesson for the dog, but it worked. The dog suffered no lasting ill effects and whenever I see her now, she literally falls over herself to get to me and won't leave me alone, but does so in a completely respectful way.

[EmeraldsAtDawn]

Aversive methods are risky.

Sometimes they can work, if you are lucky and the dog links their behaviour with the "good blasting" but there is an equal (if not greater) risk they link the punishment with the presence of the a specific person, with the environment they are in at the time, with almost anything other than their own behaviour.

If they do that, the dog and owner are really in a lot of trouble.

Multiple studies have linked dogs that are subjected to aversive training methods to

• an increase in owner directed aggression
• an increase in starnger directed aggression
• an increase in dog directed aggression
• an increase in stress hormone levels in the dog
• an incraese in stress behaviours
• a more pessimistic outlook (i.e. fearful of new things)

Some studies have shown them to be as effective as reward based methods (albeit riskier). None have ever shown them to be better.

The American Guide Dogs association ran a dual year in which some dogs were trained using their traditional mix of punishment and reward and some dogs were trained only using rewards. They saw an increase of pass rate from 50% to 80% in the dogs only trained with reward. They also saw a significant reduction in the time taken to train those dogs. More graduated and did so more quickly.

If someone is going to use aversive methods then they should also be clear on the risk they are taking with their dog.

In the words of Bob Bailey, arguably one of the most succesful animal trainers and behaviourists in the world...

"We deal in operant conditioning. I use positive reinforcement, I use negative reinforcement, I use positive punishment, and I use negative punishment. And the vast majority of all our training has been positive reinforcement. Between Marian and myself we probably have about 103 years of training experience. In the course of that, we've used positive punishment maybe a dozen times. So we stand pretty well on the side of you don't have to use positive punishment except under really extreme, unusual situations. And certainly in pet training, there's no reason I could see that you'd need to use an aversive for pet training, or, for that matter, obedience training in the ring."

[adaline]

@duvetday1212 if my dog never got off the lead to run he would be an absolute nightmare. I don't think it's healthy to never let your dogs off the lead. They need to run to to burn energy - of course the odd pavement walk is fine (and useful for learning how to walk to heel) but it will be boring if a dog is never allowed to run.

You also mention she's never ran around with other dogs - what, not even as a puppy? Has she had any doggy socialisation at all?

Mine runs off lead with me most days of the week. Occasionally he stays on if all I can do is a quick pavement walk but otherwise he's off and runs. I'm also a dog walker and occasionally he comes with me to work. Today he'll spend an hour running and playing with a collie and a spaniel and I suspect all three of them will come home shattered!

[DuvetDay1212]

@adaline there is nowhere secure for me to let her run off the lead. There are no fields to hire, it's not a thing where we live. We have a big garden, so she runs around that. I can't let her off the lead because she will bite people and chase them. This hasn't changed from when she was a pup, I've been trying to train it out of her but no success. I don't just walk her on the pavement, we have beaches and hillwalks. But all of these have people on them and aren't secure, they aren't properly gated and there are a lot of sheep. She gets the full length of the flex lead.

I didn't expect to have a dog like this. My experience of dogs has been different growing up as they were so easy and recalled well. I've been working hard to try to train her but looking at her, you'd never know.

There was one puppy socialisation class in my area but the buses didn't run at the right times for me to get to it (we now have a car but only got it a few months ago). So we made do with taking her on leaded walks everyday and letting her say hello to dogs on our walks. And introducing her to my parents dog. So she was socialised. I don't have any friends who have dogs that I can let her run around with.

[tabulahrasa]

“There are no fields to hire, it's not a thing where we live.”

Really? Whereabouts are you? Because they’re springing up all over the place

[Wolfiefan]

You need training classes with someone who knows their stuff. She hasn’t been properly socialised.
Some of this sounds like a frustrated greeter. I’m confused how you know she will bite people if you let her off lead but you don’t let her off lead. So how can you know?
You need a behaviourist.

[adaline]

She gets the full length of the flex lead.

Not enough. By a longline and let her run. Then you can grab/stamp on the end if you recall her and she ignores you.

Really? Whereabouts are you? Because they’re springing up all over the place

In fairness, there are none near me. I'm just exceptionally lucky to be able to use marshland and old nature reserves/beaches to walk my dog. The closest field to hire is about two hours drive.

[tabulahrasa]

“In fairness, there are none near me.“

Oh I’m aware they’re not actually everywhere... But I figure it’s fairly unlikely there’s neither actual countryside or fields to hire - so figured it was worth asking where about (roughly obviously) they are to see if there was somewhere they just didn’t know about.

[FelicityMarbles]

I had exactly the same problem with my dog at about 8 months. Awful biting on walks but also at home.
Drew blood through 3 layers of clothing, (had to have a tetanus injection)
Would bite arms, legs, bum, tum ... anything he could get hold of.

You need to see a behaviourist op.

[adaline]

I am sorry @duvetday1212 because it's not easy having a reactive dog but the main reason for poor behaviour like that is a lack of exercise.

Dogs need to get off and run. You have a working breed who is bred to run and swim, not walk on the end of a lead everyday. Of course there's nothing wrong with the occasional lead walk but unless you're walking for hours at a time it just won't be enough.

There must be somewhere you can let her off lead - a tennis court, or ask on your local
Facebook group to see if someone has a field you can use? I know someone on here managed to use a school playing field at weekends and evenings to run her dog, for example.

Mine is always ten times more settled if he's been off lead. I dog walk and took three dogs out yesterday lunchtime - all off lead for a good 45 minutes and they all came back shattered - a good play, a run and the freedom to disappear off and sniff random plants does them the world of good.

[LadyGuffers]

it's not easy having a reactive dog but the main reason for poor behaviour like that is a lack of exercise

It's a reason. Not the main one. Behaviour like that is often multifactorial in cause.

[LadyGuffers]

I'm going to get in touch with a local behaviourist to see if she can help. I've ordered a long line.

Both sound like good ideas.