6 month old biting, lunging, attacking on walks

[BreathlessCommotion]

We thought things had improved from the puppy biting phase. We worked with a trainer, who was excellent and we made some real progress.

But in the last few weeks she has got so much worse. Whenever we take her for a walk, both on and off lead, she will suddenly turn and jump, bite, pull and lunge at us biting. If we fold arms and turn our backs she bites bums and legs! Now she has adult teeth it is really painful. I am covered in bruises and she has drawn blood a few times.

She looks like a police dog hanging off our arms. The distraction and calming techniques-throwing treats on floor for her to sniff and find, isn't working.

Today I had to call DH to come and fetch us as I couldn't get anywhere, she was constantly jumping, biting, lunging.

We play games with her, do enrichment, but it doesn't seem to help.

Any suggestions?

What breed is she? Pulling and wrestling can be very rewarding in itself for some breeds. And she is just a pup so lots of naughtiness is to be expected.

Perhaps changing to a head collar or a harness would help take the wind out of her sails... But again it depends on the breed physique

Also when I said she sounded overstimulated, I meant by the environment and whatever was happening in that moment, rather than her having too much exercise overall.

I've had several working dogs over the yrs and when they were pups, I didn't limit exercise. Don't get me wrong, they weren't running miles and miles every day, but they were getting two decent walks from a young age and they needed it. No way could they have coped with 15-30 mins per day.

In my experience, dogs don't learn to lay quietly from a young age whilst also being on restricted exercise. They lay quietly when they're sufficiently physically and mentally tired. It also come with age, mine all 'matured' by the age of about 3/4.

I think I really difficult to advise without seeing your dog in action! I'd go back to the trainer tbh, if they were any good?

Is she trying to get your attention? My 17 week old does similar and it’s like a cry of “play with me!”. I distract with a toy or a minute or two of training. Something to make her think.

Downright cruel the op didn’t say how long the walks were, so you jumped on your soapbox pretty quick there

As I said, when we were sticking more strictly to the 5 mins per month (which there has no evidence for btw, and working dogs do far more than that) she would get nippy in the house

Then you interrupt with a no/hey/ah whichever she understands and calmly remove yourself or herself each and every time.

Nip = you leaving and her on solitary or her being removed and left on solitary.
Every.single.time.

How do you know that working dogs do far more exercise before age 1 exactly?
Do you know a lot of working dog people?
Lots of gamekeepers, people who work their labradors?

Off the lead she will often turn immediately and attack us. If we reduce the walk lengths then we won't be able to do any off lead stuff and we don't live close enough

I still very much think this behaviour sounds like overstimulation.

My (personal, non professional but owner of a working bred lines dog) would be to massively reduce exercise, massively reduce play and training, focus on settle training and teaching her to be quiet and bored.

If it was me, the absolute second she goes to bite I would immediately end the walk and go home.

Biting = no walk.

In the early days she may very well end up going without.

the op didn’t say how long the walks were, so you jumped on your soapbox pretty quick there

As I said in my post, I hope I didn't come across too rude.

All big breed dogs are prone to joint problems.
Labradors especially are famous for hip dysplasia.

It is a very painful disease and expensive to treat and often doesn't show until adulthood.

I don't want to upset anyone but at the same time I wanted to make clear how important it is not to overexercise a large breed dog.

Tiredness doesn't equal good.
It just equals tired!
You need to train what is expected.

Re the lunging, biting etc.
My own dog will go exactly like this if overexercised and subjected to lots of training games, high adrenaline games, food toys etc.

We do walk away from nipping/biting in the house.

It's seems there are different opinions. She still does less than an hour a day of walking.

We do that mat training with her in the house. Should we be doing more or less of that? What about other training/enrichment?

I do actually know a gamekeeper and others with working dogs.

I really am trying my best and have done lots of reading and thought I was doing the best I could.

Sorry, I feel really shit about it. There is constantly conflicting advice about everything. I probably increased her walks a bit because I was so bored of walking the exact same block every time. If she can only do 15 minutes at a time, that's all we can do, round the block. And no off lead.

And then I read that it had been debunked and I read the research (yes really, the proper journal paper). So we did more, not massively, not miles and miles.

And I thought she was bored and that's why she nipped or stealing stuff (for attention), jumping about the place. But now I have no idea.

The trainer said she was getting over excited, hence dropping stuff on floor to get her to sniff and calm down.

When she attacks, it is pretty vicious. I cannot walk away, turn away. I can barely unclasp her jaw from my hand/arm.

We do walk away from nipping/biting in the house
Good.

We do that mat training with her in the house. Should we be doing more or less of that? What about other training/enrichment?
When I did it, I used to do it frequently throughout the day, as she got better at it if she went to get up after a period of time without release (I use a release word after every command so e.g. Sit, she has to stay in sit until I release her) I would gently push her back down and calmly treat.

Other training/enrichment; I use kongs occasionally.
Also baby toys, things like stacking rings.
Trick training.

I keep things like fetching balls to a minimum because she gets very obsessive.

I do actually know a gamekeeper and others with working dogs
Have you asked their advice?
Maybe they could help you?

I really am trying my best and have done lots of reading and thought I was doing the best I could
Not denying that at all and really sorry if I have come across abrupt or judgy.

In not, I know when I got my pup I was told massive amounts of exercise, training etc and I didn't know any better.
It didn't go very well, she was very whiny, struggled to relax, paced etc a lot of the time.
Too much excitement and she'd start bouncing about and biting.

I found that reducing high stress activities like fetch and hide and seek and focusing more on calm walks and calm activities that work her brain and being bored a lot of the time made a big difference.

But that is just my personal experience.

Thank you. We have a release word too. OK, more boring day tomorrow.

Sorry, I feel really shit about it. There is constantly conflicting advice about everything
This is unfortunately true.

And I thought she was bored and that's why she nipped or stealing stuff (for attention), jumping about the place
She may well be but imo she needs to learn that life is boring sometimes and that nipping or stealing things won't result in attention.

The trainer said she was getting over excited, hence dropping stuff on floor to get her to sniff and calm down
I agree with another poster who was dubious about this.
I also think that this is confusing and the dog probably won't see it as distraction but as a reward.
Is your trainer registered with the APBC?
Or other (good) registration body?
Dog training is an unregulated industry so you need to be really careful who you get.

When she attacks, it is pretty vicious. I cannot walk away, turn away. I can barely unclasp her jaw from my hand/arm
I think if it is as bad as you say, given her size aswell, you need a good, properly qualified behaviourist.

If you are at the stage with a six month pup whose jaws you can barely clasp you have issues! Get it muzzled to start with before real injury is done. You need to firm up your voice with a loud sharp NO. Old fashioned view but you need to be pack leader. Chucking treats on ground isn't working.

Have you watched The Dog Whisperer? I'd also second PP- animals will do things they get given food for more often. I think distraction treats may well be just encouraging the behaviour.

Ending the walk and going home when she starts going for you will not deter her. Dogs live in the moment, she won't understand that she's being taken home for biting, she won't be able to make that connection.

Honestly OP I'd say that you've been unlucky with this dog I'm afraid. It shouldn't be this hard. Whether she's got some dodgy genes in there, or perhaps she's just neurotic. Who knows, but this is not normal behaviour.

All of my dogs have been ridiculously over excited/stimulated on walks at one time or another and NEVER have they shown any aggression towards me. If they had, I would have gone ballistic. No doubt that will be a very unpopular statement but there you go. I have six working dogs and never have they growled, put their teeth on me or shown any aggression whatsoever. They know their place (another unpopular view) but it works for me.

TBH, I'd also agree with VisionQuest. Dogs can't be allowed to think biting is in any way tolerable- all it takes is for them to try it with a stranger and you could end up with a dead dog (and/or a mauled child, which is far worse).

Ending the walk and going home when she starts going for you will not deter her. Dogs live in the moment, she won't understand that she's being taken home for biting, she won't be able to make that connection

I was thinking that this behaviour probably starts early on in the walk?

And that the lunging, biting etc may be reinforcing, therefore, the second there is any beginning of jumping, biting etc I would immediately end the walk so the bad behaviour isn't reinforced.

With my own dog for example, she has to sit calmly to have her lead put on, walk behind me and sit and wait while I lock the door.
If there is any bouncing/pulling/breaking sit etc we are straight back in the house, leash is hung up and there is no walk.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Honestly OP I'd say that you've been unlucky with this dog I'm afraid. It shouldn't be this hard. Whether she's got some dodgy genes in there, or perhaps she's just neurotic. Who knows, but this is not normal behaviour

Quite possibly but then she has also been rewarded for this by scattering treats hasn't she?
Maybe it's been inadvertently reinforced?

All of my dogs have been ridiculously over excited/stimulated on walks at one time or another and NEVER have they shown any aggression towards me

Mine has never to the extent of the OPs dog but I have certainly had her bounce about and bite and nip me although the bites were massively inhibited, I certainly didn't have to prize her jaws off me although she did tear and ruin many of my clothes by hanging off them 😡

The fact the dog is latched into flesh by the sounds of it? is worrying given her size hence why I think actually OP should see a registered behaviourist.

I'm not sure it's 'aggressive' although obviously none of us have ever met the dog.

It sounds more like overexcited, poorly inhibited play biting?
To me anyway.
Still dangerous though.

If they had, I would have gone ballistic. No doubt that will be a very unpopular statement but there you go
If mine had ever properly bitten down meaning I struggled to get her jaws open (rather than nips and inhibited biting) so would I.

I have six working dogs and never have they growled, put their teeth on me or shown any aggression whatsoever. They know their place (another unpopular view)

I don't agree with the idea of pack theory necessarily but I agree they definately need boundaries, clear ideas of what is and isn't acceptable imo.
We follow NILIF here and I have no qualms whatsoever about telling her off if she does something naughty.

Have a google of decompression walks...it all makes sense when you see it from a different perspective...

“Also when I said she sounded overstimulated, I meant by the environment and whatever was happening in that moment, rather than her having too much exercise overall.”

Yep that’s what I meant too, though I mentioned overtired because they look similar... bratty, lol

I’ve had 2 dogs that were like that at about that age btw, one fairly mildly and he just grew out of it, the other was more of a pain and always had a tendency towards getting a bit mouthy when overexcited.

General training, especially impulse control stuff helped - especially games where you’re getting them really excited and stopping when they get OTT until they display desired behaviours.

If she can only do 15 minutes at a time, that's all we can do, round the block. And no off lead.

Can't you drive somewhere so she gets a more exciting walk?

When ours was a puppy we'd drive to the beach or woods or the park so he could be off lead and go somewhere more exciting than just around the block.

If you're taking her along the same route everyday she's probably bored and looking to you for entertainment. Go to the beach or park or find a tennis court or enclosed field and let her off the lead to play and run. Obviously not for hours on end but thirty minutes twice a day would be perfect.

Mine used to be awful for this when he was younger. I used to tie his lead to the washing line and walk away from him. I wonder if you could adapt the idea and tie him to a tree/fence when he starts, then take a few steps away and turn your back? Also, do you have any toys that are like a fluffy fake fur thing on the end of a piece of rope? Then you can lure him to play with the fluffy thing while still being far enough away that he can’t bite you. Keep telling him how good he is while he’s playing with the furry toy.
Also, another thing that always distracted mine was the presence of another dog - does he still do it if you walk with another dog? Can you arrange with a friend with a dog to help?

My dog use to do this at about 7month-1year old.

On lead, he would bite the lead and pull, really hard and spin me round in circles. I changed to a chain lead and that stopped quite quickly.

If he was off lead, he would come running up, jump and bite my arm and run off. He would often draw blood and tear the sleeve. If I tried to reprimand him, or catch him, he would run round me snapping and barking.

I honestly thought I had an aggressive dog and was so so close to rehoming him.

In the end, I used a long line attached to his harness and just laying loose on the ground. When he started biting, I would gather in the line and hold him so tight on the harness until he sat down and calmed down.

I tried keeping a rope toy with me too, and shoving that in his mouth each time.

I'm sure it was over excitement and he luckily grew out of it. But I sympathise as its really awful!

Took her to the vets this morning and she does have a slight ear infection. They had to muzzle her to look, she knows the vet really well (she ran the puppy training classes). She didn't bite, but was really fearful and her muzzle wrinkled up.

Vet said it was a bit red so have tablets for infection and drops for ears. Hopefully that will help.

We've kept today much more quiet, and she has been a bit better. Still some biting and jumping, but not quite as frantic.

When she attacks, it is pretty vicious. I cannot walk away, turn away. I can barely unclasp her jaw from my hand/arm.

That isn’t normal. Sorry but it isn’t. You need a behaviourist and fast. The bigger she gets the stronger she’ll be and she’s really going to hurt you.

I also have to say, if my dog had jumped and bitten at me his paws wouldn’t have touched the ground. Never mind distraction treats, he’d have got an absolute fucking bellowing. I’m all for obedience training, I do it myself but as a previous poster said, they live in the moment. Perhaps if she gets a sudden scary reaction from you she might actually associate it with her own bad behaviour.

Sorry you’re going through this though. I know puppies can be hard but you’re having a pretty rough time.

You need ken stronach from zen dog whispering. He's a behaviourist rather than a trainer as such as he absolutely changed our friends dog who was a fucking liability tbh, i was terrified of it!

@Sneezer they don’t. Anyone who teaches owners to be “leader of the pack” is using outdated and discredited pack theory as a basis for their work. They may get short term results but not long term a happy and healthy relationship or understanding their dog.